Author |
Topic: For Paul Franklin...Compensators.... |
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 16 May 2006 2:46 pm
|
|
I didn't want to appear like I was hijacking the keyed/keyless thread, but I was wondering if you could tell me the strings that you use compensators on (E9th and C6th). Thanks for your time and effort on this. |
|
|
|
Franklin
|
Posted 16 May 2006 7:19 pm
|
|
Glad to. On my guitars almost every string that raises and lowers has one.
E9th: strings 1,2,4,5,6,8,10
C6th: strings 2,3,5,10
Paul |
|
|
|
Bobby Boggs
From: Upstate SC.
|
Posted 16 May 2006 7:31 pm
|
|
Paul.Are you now lowering the 1st string on E9? Thanks in advance...........bb |
|
|
|
John Bechtel
From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
|
Posted 16 May 2006 7:57 pm
|
|
Bobby:
Not meaning to butt-in but; it goes w/o saying that str. #1 is Lowered. Hence, the compensator!
------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
|
|
|
|
Bobby Boggs
From: Upstate SC.
|
Posted 16 May 2006 9:20 pm
|
|
John I didn't know he lowered the 1st string on E9. I certainly understand if it is lowered. It needs a compensator. Thought it might have been a type O.........bb |
|
|
|
Larry Behm
From: Mt Angel, Or 97362
|
Posted 17 May 2006 3:49 am
|
|
Is the 1st string lowered a 1/2 or full?
Larry Behm |
|
|
|
Franklin
|
Posted 17 May 2006 4:34 am
|
|
I lower the first a 1/2 and raise the 6th 1 & 1/2. Its a cool change for traditional Country. Hoping they'll make some soon!
Paul |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From: Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 17 May 2006 4:43 am
|
|
Is there a site somewhere that explains what a compensator is? I've searched 20 or so threads and still really have no idea what it exactly does, or how it works. |
|
|
|
Curt Langston
|
Posted 17 May 2006 6:09 am
|
|
Jim
quote: "Ask Bud!"
Question:
Many newer model steels offer tunable splits or compensators. Would you explain the difference between tunable splits and the "feel" stops or half-stops often used on 2nd string lowers? What are the tunable splits intended to accomplish? How well do the different brands of pedal steels stack up?
Answer:
To answer your question about the difference between tunable splits and half-stops (feel stops, etc.), I can say the following:
Half-Stops:
Half-stops are normally found on the 2nd string on the E9 neck: D# to D to C# (-1/2, -1). These typically control one (1) string only and are used with 1 knee lever at a time. Half-stops can be used on pedals, but we do not recommend it because it is harder to feel the stop with your feet and it makes the action stiffer. Most modern steels implement half-stops in 2 different ways:
Separate pull bar (bell crank), rod and tuning nuts with its own unique location (11th or 13th lower "finger"). This method was first used on the MCI. Presently, it is used on both the Remington and the Carter.
The 9th string (D) lower (C# or -1/2) engages only when string 2 (D#) goes from D to C#. Zumsteel, Mullen & others use this method.
Both methods are tuned with tuning nuts in the endplate (same as pedals & knee levers).
Splits:
Splits allow you to use a pedal and a knee lever that operate the same string together at the same time. Example: Pedal 2 raises the 6th string (G#) 1/2-tone (+1/2) to A; Knee lever lowers full tone (-1) to F#. In this example, a split would allow you to use both the pedal and knee lever together, resulting in a 1/2-tone lower (G) and it would be accurately tunable.
Compensators:
There are three (3) types of Compensators:
Tuning Compensators: are extra "pulls" that allow you to be in tune when using the pedals or knee levers.. A typical implementation is to flat the two (2) F#'s (strings 1 and 7) about 1/8 of a tone when the "A&B" pedals are used (E9 to A6).
Return Compensators: are extra rods typically attached to a fixed point, such as a cross-brace. These make sure any string that both lowers and raises will return true. Not all steels use or require this type of compensator.
Detuning Compensators: are mechanisms that apply pressure to the changer to reduce an excessive "drop" in pitch that occurs due to mechanical stresses caused by using the pedals and/or knee levers. Very few steels use this type of compensator.
As to how well the different brands stack up, I recommend that you talk to the various manufacturers, try out the different makes, and talk to other players who use or have used those products. And, I suppose, just like anything else in life, your own personal preferences will shape your outlook and opinion of what is a good steel, as well as a good deal.
My Sierra does not need them.[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 07:11 AM.] [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 08:26 AM.] [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 05:44 PM.] |
|
|
|
John Fabian
From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
|
|
|
Curt Langston
|
Posted 17 May 2006 6:25 am
|
|
Hmmm.............Looks identical to me. I got it off the Carter website. What is the difference? I don't see one.
[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 07:54 AM.] |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From: Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 17 May 2006 6:45 am
|
|
The "drop return" compensators was one of the primary reasons I bought a Franklin in 1981. I had fought the "hysterisis" in my 71 PP Emmons and finally gave up. At the time, Franklin was the only one that I know of that offered the compensators as a standard feature (actually the only one that I knew of that offered them at the time).
I have compensators on; E9th - 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th and 10th. On C6 - 2nd, 3rd and 10th (although the 9th both raises and lowers for some reason it doen't need one).
My copedent is listed on my web site www.gulfcoaststeelguitar.com |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From: Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 17 May 2006 12:57 pm
|
|
Those explanations leave a bit to be desired, I think.
From my perspective, as someone who has zero knowledge of them - it sounds like a gadget that makes your guitar be in tune when there doesn't seem to be any reason for it to be out of tune to begin with.
1.You tune the raises on two pedals to start with - so why would there be an "extra pull" to tune something already tuned? It's either tuned - or it's not. If it's not, it doesn't need an "add-on" - it needs repair or redesign.
2. Why would a string both raised and lowered return out-of-tune? It would seem to me if a "compensator" was necessary to force a string to return properly, something wasn't built right to start with.
Maybe I'm missing the boat entirely, but I'm just trying to understand what a "compensator" is - and from the descriptions given it seems like it's just something added to make up for mechanical defects.
Maybe Leo Fender and crew had the right idea. It seems like the old Fender changers don't have any of these weird problems. |
|
|
|
John Fabian
From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 17 May 2006 1:14 pm
|
|
Jim,
Follow the link above not the inaccurate quote that appeared before editing.
Tuning compensators have nothing to do with improper mechanical operation or design of steel guitars.
When using JT and the root note changes strings ( like from 4, E, to 6, A, when the pedals are pushed) the other notes in the chords need to change their interval spacing to "sound right".
The 7th string, which is NOT moving when using the A & B pedals, will be out of tune as it becomes a 6th instead of a 9th. It needs to be slightly flattened to sound in tune. Similarly, when lowering the E's you'll find the seventh string needs to be sharpened since it is now the 5th of a B chord.
I'm pretty sure you'll find your Fender has some of the same problems. You can't escape the laws of physics. [This message was edited by John Fabian on 18 May 2006 at 03:33 AM.] |
|
|
|
Curt Langston
|
Posted 17 May 2006 1:16 pm
|
|
quote: Maybe I'm missing the boat entirely, but I'm just trying to understand what a "compensator" is - and from the descriptions given it seems like it's just something added to make up for mechanical defects.
No Jim. Your simple insight is the basis of a lot of controversy and pride. You are right to question why.
Reminds me of the story of the "Emporer's new clothes".....................
Excellent.
|
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From: Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 17 May 2006 2:04 pm
|
|
Those last two posts seem on opposite neds of the earth...I think.
I'm confused by John's post, though - both descriptions said the same thing to me. If you tune to 440 (I plead ignorance one one thing - I don't know what you mean by "JT"), your changes are tuned 440 - when a string becomes a new root note, how does it magically become 443 or something? That's where to me, something is wrong with the guitar.
Cabinet drop I understand conceptually - but this one seems more like voodoo than physics.
And having read things again - I still don't see the difference between the posted stuff and Carter's link. |
|
|
|
ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
|
Posted 17 May 2006 2:23 pm
|
|
Jim...if you think that you are confused now, do a search for "just intonation"...or "JI" or "ET" (equal temperament). |
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 17 May 2006 2:23 pm
|
|
Curt, when I looked at John's link, I saw 3 types of compensators: Tuning, Return, and Detuning.
John, I have a copedant I will be emailing you that I would like to put on my new Carter (almost there with the savings), but would like to get some feedback from you on any possible problems. It tends to be somewhat of a complex setup.
Paul, thanks again for sharing your info and all that you do for pedal steel guitar. |
|
|
|
James Gennrich
From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
|
Posted 17 May 2006 2:56 pm
|
|
Hi Paul. Were did you put the lowering 1st string on. Did you add another knee lever. If possable can you e-mail me you current set up on your E9 th . I want to get a single neck because of weight issues and want to try your set up. Thanks Jim |
|
|
|
Kevin Hatton
From: Buffalo, N.Y.
|
Posted 17 May 2006 3:47 pm
|
|
John Fabian, I'm glad that you are here to explain the compensator subject. Mr. fabian knows. So does Bud. |
|
|
|
George Redmon
From: Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
|
Posted 17 May 2006 4:35 pm
|
|
Quote: |
Tuning compensators have nothing to do with improper mechanical operation or design of steel guitars |
With all due respect again here Mr Fabian...that is the exact reason why some guitars need them and some don't for the same changes...i followed your link, in fact i read it twice, and again with all due respect, i respectfully disagree....
While i really enjoy and appreciate the insight of great players like Mr Franklin, and others. We must remember, as awe struck as we are. They are "Not" the final authority on this subject. There are players, then there are builders. And not all builders play like Mr Franklin, and not all players build like Mr Fields, and Mr Rudolph, Mr Andersen, and Mr Paul Redmond.
Edited For Spelling[This message was edited by George Redmon on 17 May 2006 at 05:38 PM.] |
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 17 May 2006 4:57 pm
|
|
b0b, it appears this thread is heading where it ought not. Please close. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Curt Langston
|
Posted 17 May 2006 5:01 pm
|
|
It is just different points of views Dickie. It is not derogatory or abusive in any way. No name calling. No disrespect. [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 06:03 PM.] [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 06:04 PM.] |
|
|
|
Curt Langston
|
Posted 17 May 2006 5:11 pm
|
|
quote: Bobby Lee
Sysop
From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
posted 15 March 2002 09:01 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several meanings of the word "compensator" in pedal steel lingo.
First, a compensator pull is one that pulls a string by a small amount to bring it in tune with notes that have been changed my the pedals. The most common of these is the technique of lowering the F# strings slightly on the A or B pedals, to bring them in tune with the A major chord.
Another kind of compensator is used to bring a return back to pitch. This is most common on the E strings, where the lower change typically returns sharp (the "hysteresis" effect). Keyless guitars don't have this problem, so they don't need this kind of compensator.
------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)
This is a very good explaination!
[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 06:13 PM.] |
|
|
|