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Topic: Tuning keys too hard to turn question? |
George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2020 12:31 pm |
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Are these Grover keys? I had to replace them a couple of years ago because they got too hard to turn. I have the same problem again. Some of them I can't turn without a peg winder. I have kept them oiled. Is there anything I can do to loosen them up or have they just run their course in two years. How about going to Kluson. I never had this problem with any of my Emmons PP's.
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James Meloan
From:
Williamsport, Pennsylvania, USA
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Norman Evans
From:
Tennessee
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Posted 19 Jul 2020 1:21 pm
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| I don't know about these, but you can loosen or tighten the screw in the button on Grovers and get the tension you want. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2020 1:49 pm Tuning keys too hard to turn question?
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| Looks like I've got a real booger on my hands. If they don't make Spertzel anymore, is there anything else that will fit my 82 Zum? I dont know if these were what was on the guitar originally or not. Can some of you Zum guys chime in. I hate to bother Bruce in his retirement. |
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James Flaherty
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2020 3:21 pm
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| Can the tuners be disassembled for cleaning and re-lubricating? |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 19 Jul 2020 3:38 pm
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George www.sperzel.com Contact the company headquarters in Cleveland O. and I'll just bet they will have some helpful info for you.
I don't think any other model of tuner will fit without some work to your keyhead. This is what I was told by John Fabian years ago when I was considering replacing them on my Zum. |
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Barry Coker
From:
Bagley Alabama, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2020 4:05 pm
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My 1980 Zum was getting hard to turn so the last time I changed strings I took off the really stiff keys and did a good cleaning and lube. with the key off take out the screw that in the top of the key slide off the thumb screw section the plastic spacer and the metal spacer that slides over the shaft. You can then slide the thumb section back on and rotate the key (I think it was clockwise) and the gear and shaft will screw out through the bottom and you can clean that gear and access the other. Use some solvent and a small brush to clean then lube with a good synthetic grease. when you reassemble be very carful to NOT TIGHTEN the screw to much this will cause the problem all over again. Just run the screw down till the key gets stiff and then back off about 1/2 turn tightening the screw to tight will cause a miss alignment in the gears and the key is hard to turn.
Good Luck
Barry
_________________
Zum-D-10, Webb 614-E, 65 Pro Reverb, Evans RE200, 69 Gibson Birdland, 89 Telecaster EAD Bad!! |
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Pat Moore
From:
Virginia USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2020 5:04 pm Tuners
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Hi George,
I called Sperzel about my Emmons SKH tuners. 216-281-6868.
I was told if I had them off the guitar, send them & they'd redo them. However, would use the same grease which is controversial.
I was told by a great Emmons mechanic that the grease is not the problem. I'm gonna send them when they get worse.
I did buy an electric stringwinder that I used when I changed strings & that helped somewhat. Gotta loosen the set screw especially when going clockwise!
Give 'em a call. Hope this helps!
Pat |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 7:41 am Tuning keys too hard to turn question?
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| Thank everybody for their help. I do like to my own maintenance whenever possible, so I will remove a key this week and see what I can do with it before calling Spertzel. No venues open, so a good time for maintenance. |
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Pat Moore
From:
Virginia USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 9:40 am
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Hey George,
If you can take 'em apart, please let us know the details. Inquiring minds want to know!🤔
Thx, Pat |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 9:49 am
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| Norman Evans wrote: |
| I don't know about these, but you can loosen or tighten the screw in the button on Grovers and get the tension you want. |
Bingo!
Yes, the screw tension is critical!!! (The more you tighten the screws, the harder it is to turn the tuners.) |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 12:28 am
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these are the Sperzel tuners from a specif era, late 70's thru mid 80's. Found on Emmons and Sho Buds. Do a forum search and there is plenty of info.
It has NOTHING to do with the screws at the top of the tuners. This is well documented and confirmed by Sperzel .
1- they don't come completely apart
2- the grease used by Sperzel hardened
3- the shaft sizes are not common with other tuners, including Grovers.
4- The key heads have been drilled to accommodate THESE tuners.
5-The "secure" screw holes do not align with other tuners either.
6- Sperzel will try to loosen them up for you
7- you can soak them in Diesel Fuel or solvent , it may help
8- there is NO direct replacement, according to Sperzel
9-its not uncommon for many Steels from this period
10- its a bummer
11-ask me how I know
12- ok I'll tell you, 1979 SB Pro I , 1983 Push Pull
SIDE NOTE #1 - remove the tuners, you can get them to open up slightly which may allow some of the hardened grease to come out ,once softened after soaking. This is what Sperzel recommends and does.
On the P Pull I had, I removed all 20, surprisingly 4 or 5 came completely apart, the others did not. Soaking helped , improved the TURNING ability by about 50%.
Side Note #2- DO NOT strip or break off the small secure screws going into the Key Head when removing the tuners ! Tight tuners will be the least of your problem ! Should you go down this road, remove all secure (pin) screws, mark them , put them back in the exact same locations. This is NOT a joke, they are self threading. Removing the KEY Heads is really the best approach for a resolution.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 7:06 am
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You might try this.
I've had good success with it on various projects.
You can buy it a sporting goods stores.
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:49 am
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| I purchased a brand new Emmons S-12 push/pull back in the early 1980s. It came with those tuners. Within a year of receipt of that guitar, a couple of the tuners were already starting to get a little bit "tight". I could loosen them up a little bit each time I changed strings. As time passed, they all started to get a bit tighter. |
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John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 10:43 am
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| I had a bad problem with tight Sperzel tuners on my ‘82 SKH LeGrande and fought with them for years. I finally contacted Jim Aycoth, who had taken over the Emmons Co. and he had me remove and send the tuner keys and key heads back to him. It cost me some money, but he sent me some new key heads loaded with Schaller tuners and they worked much better. I tried to complain to Ron Lashley about it at the 83 convention but he ignored me. Totally unacceptable. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 6:14 pm
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If they won't come apart (and I'm not sure at all that I believe that), then they can most likely be drilled, cleaned, and re-lubed. I don't about everyone else here, but I'd REFUSE to give up easily on such a silly-assed little problem.  I also can't believe that someone else hasn't come up with a solution.
Maybe Barry Coker has...see below:
| Barry Coker wrote: |
My 1980 Zum was getting hard to turn so the last time I changed strings I took off the really stiff keys and did a good cleaning and lube. with the key off take out the screw that in the top of the key slide off the thumb screw section the plastic spacer and the metal spacer that slides over the shaft. You can then slide the thumb section back on and rotate the key (I think it was clockwise) and the gear and shaft will screw out through the bottom and you can clean that gear and access the other. Use some solvent and a small brush to clean then lube with a good synthetic grease. when you reassemble be very careful to NOT TIGHTEN the screw to much this will cause the problem all over again. Just run the screw down till the key gets stiff and then back off about 1/2 turn tightening the screw to tight will cause a miss alignment in the gears and the key is hard to turn. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 8:49 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
If they won't come apart (and I'm not sure at all that I believe that), then they can most likely be drilled, cleaned, and re-lubed. I don't know about everyone else here, but I'd REFUSE to give up easily on such a silly-assed, simple little problem. I also can't believe that someone else hasn't come up with a solution.
Maybe Barry Coker has...see below:
| Barry Coker wrote: |
My 1980 Zum was getting hard to turn so the last time I changed strings I took off the really stiff keys and did a good cleaning and lube. with the key off take out the screw that in the top of the key slide off the thumb screw section the plastic spacer and the metal spacer that slides over the shaft. You can then slide the thumb section back on and rotate the key (I think it was clockwise) and the gear and shaft will screw out through the bottom and you can clean that gear and access the other. Use some solvent and a small brush to clean then lube with a good synthetic grease. when you reassemble be very careful to NOT TIGHTEN the screw to much this will cause the problem all over again. Just run the screw down till the key gets stiff and then back off about 1/2 turn tightening the screw to tight will cause a miss alignment in the gears and the key is hard to turn. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 1:16 am
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They do not come apart. PERIOD. Why argue with Sperzel and others who have BEEN down this road ? Taking the button off by removing the screw and washer is typical and common , you can do that with these specific tuners as well. But the worm shaft does not get released. Its a POOR design or perhaps a manufacturing defect. Doesn't matter. It is what it is. CONFIRMED BY SPERZEL.
They do not come apart. Period. If they did this would be a NON subject. Taking Tuners apart is not brain science , we don't need an engineering degree.
They do not need LUBE, the GREASE hardened . Its needs to be removed.
I have removed from the key heads and cleaned ( soaked) probably 60 or more of these specific Sperzel tuners. Oddly enough, a few did come apart but most did not. 5 or 6 out of over 60 came apart, the rest did not. Sperzel told me none of them should have come apart ! Very odd.
These specif tuners were discontinued late 80's or so, according to Sperzel. To make matters worse, the shaft sizes, pin holes and screw holes are not consistent with other brands. For my 83 Emmons PP, at the time, I wanted to use a set of Klusons or Grovers that I had, NOPE. No can do. Key Heads were drilled for these specific tuners.
here is an old thread from years back , just for old times sake
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=338152&highlight=sperzel
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 4:30 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| They do not come apart. PERIOD. Why argue with Sperzel and others who have BEEN down this road ?... |
Because if they were such geniuses or experts, they wouldn't have kept using that stupid grease. 
| Quote: |
| Its a POOR design or perhaps a manufacturing defect. Doesn't matter. It is what it is. CONFIRMED BY SPERZEL....They do not come apart. Period. If they did this would be a NON subject. |
Uhh, and then...
| Quote: |
I have removed from the key heads and cleaned ( soaked) probably 60 or more of these specific Sperzel tuners. Oddly enough, a few did come apart... |
Okay, just 10%, but that's a start!
| Quote: |
| ...5 or 6 out of over 60 came apart, the rest did not. Sperzel told me none of them should have come apart ! Very odd. |
Musta been a Uri Geller intervention, I guess?
Mike, I don't know what you can do, or what others can do. I also don't know what Sperzel is capable of (other than gross negligence). But I'm a certified "hard head", and I don't give up on "impossible tasks" as easily as the next guy. When someone here told me his old MSA guitar wouldn't do a full-tone raise on the first string, others suggested removing the changer and grinding the fingers, or replacing the entire changer. I came up with a solution NOBODY else had thought of! It was stupid-simple, and required no machine work on the changer.
I'll leave you with these words by Thomas Edison...
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I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time. I start where the last man left off. |
Have a nice day!  |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 6:47 am
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Donny , they didn't KNOW the grease hardened for a few years, then they stopped using it. How would they know ? I believe you are assuming people are giving up. I don't think thats the case.
Perhaps contact those who are having trouble and offer assistance, not everyone is capable or even want to take things apart. Many don't have the space or work area to even begin such a task.
IF someone wants to send me their tuners I will gladly try to help them.
We are really getting off topic here, people want to know how to solve the issue if possible. Many have responded with a workaround, even Sperzel. How we got to this issue is irrelevant now.
They are still a fine company, they have offered assistance to anyone that reaches out to them. Thats more than a lot of companies do.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Barry Coker
From:
Bagley Alabama, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 8:40 am
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I am posting again here to update my previous post. As I stated before I removed "2" keys from my 1980 Zum took them apart cleaned and re-lubed them. After following this post and Tony's comments I removed 3 more keys today and as Tony said they Will Not come apart as the first Two did. I have no idea why some do and some don't. But at this point I need to say Tony is correct a few may come apart but others do not.
Barry
_________________
Zum-D-10, Webb 614-E, 65 Pro Reverb, Evans RE200, 69 Gibson Birdland, 89 Telecaster EAD Bad!! |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 9:27 am
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| Barry Coker wrote: |
| ...and as Tony said they Will Not come apart as the first Two did. I have no idea why some do and some don't. But at this point I need to say Tony is correct a few may come apart but others do not. |
If at first you don't succeed...get a bigger hammer!
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 11:11 am
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| Barry Coker wrote: |
I am posting again here to update my previous post. As I stated before I removed "2" keys from my 1980 Zum took them apart cleaned and re-lubed them. After following this post and Tony's comments I removed 3 more keys today and as Tony said they Will Not come apart as the first Two did. I have no idea why some do and some don't. But at this point I need to say Tony is correct a few may come apart but others do not.
Barry |
Barry I think its wise to take them all off and give it a whirl, the worst that can happen is you clean them out 50% which is still an improvement ! Maybe a few more will come apart .
I'm not the resident expert, I was just the NEXT guy in line ! All the ones I worked on I was able to get them to function , they were still tight but manageable.
good luck!
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 2:54 pm
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FWIW, I remember talking to the Sperzel folks and being told when I asked about Left and Right keys, he, with a very foreign accent, told me to just pull the key shaft out and put it in from the other direction to turn it into the other. In other words, the housings are all the same. BTW, I just rebuilt my Sperzels and they are still crap. It doesn't help that the small key head gives you a bad grip. RP
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.
Last edited by Ron Pruter on 28 Jul 2020 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Barry Coker
From:
Bagley Alabama, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 4:02 pm
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Thanks Tony I may do that they are not that bad now but I know they will get worse. I have a small Mill Drill in my shop If they get too be a big problem I will replace them and probably be way ahead.
Barry
_________________
Zum-D-10, Webb 614-E, 65 Pro Reverb, Evans RE200, 69 Gibson Birdland, 89 Telecaster EAD Bad!! |
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