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Topic: Ridiculously Difficult Santo Lick - Canadian Sunset |
Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2020 6:05 am |
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I'm sure it's not that difficult when you have the right strings/tuning, however I've been banging my head against a wall for a week trying to figure this out and I'm getting nowhere fast! A friend has suggested it's overdubbed, but to me it does not sound overdubbed. He also suggests it's in A6 as that was Santo's "Go to" neck for a lot of songs, however I'm hearing a distinct E13 cluster of notes. It actually sounds like he's doing some sort of hammer-on bar slam technique similar to what he did for the intro of Slave Girl. Does anyone know what's going on here for just the intro part? (This entire song is sped up a full note like the rest of the tunes on this album)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJznzg0gMCI
The thing that really amazes me when I contemplate it, this was released in 1959 by a then 22 yr old Santo. And if what I'm assuming is correct, this is way ahead of it's time and intensely creative. I mean the intro to Slave girl, while not nearly as difficult as this is also just amazing (all in A6). |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 17 Jul 2020 6:23 am
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C6 high G string. Try that.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Garry Vanderlinde
From:
CA
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Posted 18 Jul 2020 4:06 pm C6th
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Here's how I play the intro in C6th tuning. Your friend was probably right that it was originally in A6th as is Slave Girl. Santo did not play C6th.
Last edited by Garry Vanderlinde on 21 Jul 2020 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Garry Vanderlinde
From:
CA
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Posted 18 Jul 2020 8:22 pm Re: C6th
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| I do think the harmonics are overdubbed. |
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Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 5:42 am
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| Very Helpful! Thanks so much Garry and Mike! C6 tuning for this is making more sense, but there's still some confusion for me with that note cluster. It's much closer in C6 however! |
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Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 5:55 am
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I’m hearing something like this with these top 2 strings as pedal points/drone, then using a hammer-on style bar shove to get the high note maybe? When I listen to it very slow it sounds like he's changing one note to creat the highest note of the melody, and it sounds like a pedal almost.
I was not aware that Santo ever used C6, however it's not possible to get those 2 drone notes with the right intervals with the A6 tuning. The fret 12 stuff sounds about right, but the fret 15 stuff does not seem exactly right. It may be that now my ears are playing tricks on me. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 11:15 am
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Hmmm. Doesn't sound like C6th to me. I quick grabbed a guitar and tried the McAuliffe version and it puts your opening lick on strings 1-4. I'm thinking it was actually one of these versions of E13th.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 11:30 am
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| That's what I was thinking Andy! I know Santo used the Boggs tuning in "Adventures in Paradise" (without the G# in the lower string) for that slowly strummed chord, however this tuning has a major 3rd on the top and those drone strings sound to me like a minor third. It's very confusing. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 1:24 pm
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You can clearly hear the E and C ringing and in the second chord the E rings until the Eb is hammered on at the 11th fret. I can recreate this, but I have an unorthodox theory as to how he did it. Will post soon.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 5:10 pm
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| Tab: |
E-------0----8~~~~~~~~----0---11~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C-------0~~~~~~~~~~~~~----0~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A------12~~~~~~~~~~~~~-13~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G--12~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-------------------------------
E-------------------------------------------------------
C------------------------------------------------------
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Red notes are hammer-ons I believe using a second bar in right hand or possible a ring to hammer the note.
I haven't had a chance to practice this, I'm simply going by what my ears are telling me is happening. There is no way that I can think of to achieve that intro without some kind of prestidigitation. Sorry this is real raw, but with practice I can get it down.
https://youtu.be/z2cHXo_abPk
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Scott Thomas
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Posted 20 Jul 2020 7:30 pm
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| I think you nailed it, Mike. The add on hammer even has that metallic sound I hear in the original. Exactly the sound of a bar coming down to get that note. You always amaze. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 4:47 am
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Excellent steel guitar forensics, Mike! You're ready for CSI: Steel Guitar Edition.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 5:40 am
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| WOW! That's totally it Mike. That's the sound! Amazing! |
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Graham Tichy
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 7:48 am A simpler answer...
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https://youtu.be/O5m5UNGofeg
I think that it’s much simpler. E13 tuning (Hi to Low E C# B G# E etc). Watch the video... It’s really easy to execute and sounds spot on to me. It also explains how Santo could play it in tune the whole time... In addition it explains solves the mystery of how he’d play the rest of the tune holding a bar in his right hand, which doesn’t seem realistic.
For the record, I was the guy who at first glance though it was A6 and overdubs. I should have spent a touch more time on it! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 7:56 am
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Cool, that sounds right to me.
Well, if you need to play it in C6, at least now you know how. Lol
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:02 am
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Graham, I'm in awe of Mike's solution but I'm in your camp. I think the simplest explanation is usually the right one. E13th just makes more sense to me but I've been wrong before! 
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:03 am
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Wow yeah this thread has utterly blown my mind. Thanks so much to everyone! Looks like Graham has got it. But Mike your solution is so creative! I think you might just usher in a new level of sophistication with this "dual bar" technique! Amazing!
One thing that I've learned about Santo in this is that this is actually the Leon E13 tuning for this, whereas the E13 tuning in Adventures is definitely the Bogg's tuning. So he had multiple tuning versions of his E13 apparently. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:15 am
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I'm resisting the probably-offensive impulse to photoshop Santo as one of the multiple-armed deities of the Hindu faith, but that would certainly be an easy explanation for some of the magic I hear from these masters!
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Scott Thomas
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:26 am
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| Very cool! It's got to have that metallic sizzle of a bar touching an open vibrating string. You hear this sound sometimes in Western Swing styles. |
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Wally Pfeifer
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:31 am Santo & Johnny
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By the way,-Jeremy,- have you listened to all 30+ of the S&J LPs?
Have a list of Japanese LPs featuring all Hawaiian music
that I can send you if you're interested. I think there is over 50,- maybe more.
Wally |
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Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:50 am
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Nic - haha yes do it!
Hey Wally! I have listened to them all! And thank you so much. I’m only lacking a couple to make the complete set now! I’d love to check out the Japanese LPs as well. Thanks Wally! |
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Wally Pfeifer
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 11:04 am Santo & Johnny
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I'm glad you enjoyed them..I may have a couple more S&J if I ever have time to find them. My whole collection is not organized. I used to have my collection organized so if I wanted to listen, I could retrieve it in a few seconds.
Wally |
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Wally Pfeifer
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 11:09 am
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See what I mean.
Wally |
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Garry Vanderlinde
From:
CA
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Posted 21 Jul 2020 2:11 pm C#m7
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| Graham Tichy wrote: |
https://youtu.be/O5m5UNGofeg
I think that it’s much simpler. E13 tuning (Hi to Low E C# B G# E etc). Watch the video... It’s really easy to execute and sounds spot on to me. It also explains how Santo could play it in tune the whole time... In addition it explains solves the mystery of how he’d play the rest of the tune holding a bar in his right hand, which doesn’t seem realistic. |
That's a great discovery Graham, sounds right on. But it could be Santo's C#m7 tuning which has the same Ist four strings:
Hi to Low E C# B G# E C#. I couldn't find what he used on strings 7 & 8...anybody?
In a "Gutar Player" interview in the late 1980's ("Unsung Heroes" column), Santo says that he recorded "Sleepwalk" and "Teardrop" on the C#minor tuning and had A6th and E7th on the other necks.
I originally learned Sleepwalk in C6th and later switched it to C#m7 and it really sounds more authentic in C#m7. I'm going to have to relearn Canadian Sunset too. |
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Graham Tichy
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2020 6:32 am Re: C#m7
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| Garry Vanderlinde wrote: |
| Graham Tichy wrote: |
https://youtu.be/O5m5UNGofeg
I think that it’s much simpler. E13 tuning (Hi to Low E C# B G# E etc). Watch the video... It’s really easy to execute and sounds spot on to me. It also explains how Santo could play it in tune the whole time... In addition it explains solves the mystery of how he’d play the rest of the tune holding a bar in his right hand, which doesn’t seem realistic. |
That's a great discovery Graham, sounds right on. But it could be Santo's C#m7 tuning which has the same Ist four strings:
Hi to Low E C# B G# E C#. I couldn't find what he used on strings 7 & 8...anybody?
In a "Gutar Player" interview in the late 1980's ("Unsung Heroes" column), Santo says that he recorded "Sleepwalk" and "Teardrop" on the C#minor tuning and had A6th and E7th on the other necks.
I originally learned Sleepwalk in C6th and later switched it to C#m7 and it really sounds more authentic in C#m7. I'm going to have to relearn Canadian Sunset too. |
It certainly could be. I haven’t dug into the rest of the song yet. I merely said E13 to differentiate that it had a B on the 3rd string... The rest of the song and tuning is up for grabs. |
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