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Topic: Major chord vs. relative minor chord |
Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 7 Jul 2020 9:32 pm |
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I have a Music degree and in my opinion, Paul Franklin explained this completely and extensively better than anyone else could have.
It is often interesting to read how some people understand and explain some basic music concepts...in this case, the relationship between a Major chord and its relative minor. Not saying anyone is incorrect, it’s just an interesting observation.
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Tim Harr
Mullen G2 D-10 (9p/5k)
Retired, US Army Band (Steel/Dobro/Guitar)
Kemper Profiler / LW 89 |
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John Alexander
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 12:34 am
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This thread reaches into some new territory, for me at least!
I'd always thought the terms "relative major" and "relative minor" applied just to keys and key signatures. For example, the key of C major is the relative major of the key of A minor, and the key of A minor is the relative minor of the key of C major. In music notation the two key signatures are written the same way: no sharps and no flats.
Now from the discussion I've learned that (1) a chord can have a relative major chord or a relative minor chord, and (2) all chords are either major or minor. 
From this I've deduced the surprising conclusion that a G Augmented triad is the relative major of an E diminished triad, and correspondingly an E diminished triad must be the relative minor of a G augmented triad. 
I'm still confused about how these rules might apply to some other kinds of chords, like say a Csus(b9) chord -- what would be it's relative major or minor chord? 
But anyway, I feel this "street theory" is opening up new ideas for me. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 8:48 am
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| John Alexander wrote: |
Now from the discussion I've learned that (1) a chord can have a relative major chord or a relative minor chord, and (2) all chords are either major or minor.
From this I've deduced the surprising conclusion that a G Augmented triad is the relative major of an E diminished triad, and correspondingly an E diminished triad must be the relative minor of a G augmented triad.
I'm still confused about how these rules might apply to some other kinds of chords, like say a Csus(b9) chord -- what would be it's relative major or minor chord? |
This is what Paul was talking about when he mentioned getting lost in “the weeds of music theoryâ€.
I would say Gaug and Edim are not related because they perform completely different harmonic functions, and they don’t share any major or minor 3rds. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 12:25 pm Major chord vs. relative minor chord
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| When a song goes to a minor chord, I will often play relative major licks. For example, the band goes to E minor, I may play G major runs or licks. It is easier for me to come up with major licks than minor licks. |
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John Alexander
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 1:15 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
This is what Paul was talking about when he mentioned getting lost in “the weeds of music theoryâ€. |
The "weeds" here are those that are found naturally growing in "grass roots" music theory.
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| I would say Gaug and Edim are not related because they perform completely different harmonic functions, and they don’t share any major or minor 3rds. |
Then what would you say is the relative minor of a Gaug chord, or the relative major of an Edim chord? Or are you saying that some chords don't have a relative minor or major?
BTW, purely as an aside, it is not true that Gaug and Edim necessarily perform completely different functions. For example, each of them can function well as a V7 in the key of Ab major. If you play around with the voice leading, you will find that either Edim or Gaug can be made to resolve nicely to Abmaj in a V-I progression. This can also be made to work with Gaug7, Edim7 and Amaj7. In this context you might want to name Gaug and Edim as inversions of Ebaug and Eb7-9 respectively, but regardless of how the chords are labeled, the two sets of 3 or 4 notes are not necessarily as functionally unrelated as they might seem out of context. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 2:18 pm
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| John Alexander wrote: |
| BTW, purely as an aside, it is not true that Gaug and Edim necessarily perform completely different functions. For example, each of them can function well as a V7 in the key of Ab major. If you play around with the voice leading, you will find that either Edim or Gaug can be made to resolve nicely to Abmaj in a V-I progression. This can also be made to work with Gaug7, Edim7 and Amaj7. In this context you might want to name Gaug and Edim as inversions of Ebaug and Eb7-9 respectively, but regardless of how the chords are labeled, the two sets of 3 or 4 notes are not necessarily as functionally unrelated as they might seem out of context. |
On the part in bold, we agree. Those two triads could serve as altered Dom7 chords in several keys, including V7 in Ab (Eb+ and Eb7b9). They serve other “Harmonic functions†in other contexts as well. That was probably the wrong term to use. Your question about whether some chords don’t have relative minors or majors is a very good one. With no common intervals, I don’t see how Gaug can be the relative major of Edim, and I’m not going to worry it any further. It looks like a big patch of weeds to me. |
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John Alexander
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 5:45 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Your question about whether some chords don’t have relative minors or majors is a very good one. With no common intervals, I don’t see how Gaug can be the relative major of Edim . . . . |
I have to agree with your logic and implied conclusion here. But then, I did not originate the idea that the terms "relative major" and "relative minor" can be applied to single chords (as distinguished from their conventional application to keys and key signatures), or the idea that diminished chords and augmented chords are somehow reducible to major and minor triads. I'm just trying to apply what I've read here. Maybe there's something we're both missing? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 8:28 pm Re: Major chord vs. relative minor chord
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| George Kimery wrote: |
| When a song goes to a minor chord, I will often play relative major licks. For example, the band goes to E minor, I may play G major runs or licks. It is easier for me to come up with major licks than minor licks. |
I used to do that, until a song came along in A minor that used the G major scale. The dorian mode really surprised me at that point.
Also, a lot of times when a minor song goes to the 5 chord, the scale changes. Like you're playing along in A minor using C major licks, and suddenly there's an E7 chord.
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2020 11:17 pm
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| John Alexander wrote: |
| I have to agree with your logic and implied conclusion here. But then, I did not originate the idea that the terms "relative major" and "relative minor" can be applied to single chords (as distinguished from their conventional application to keys and key signatures), or the idea that diminished chords and augmented chords are somehow reducible to major and minor triads. I'm just trying to apply what I've read here. Maybe there's something we're both missing? |
I think what we’re missing is a weed whacker. I’m no music PhD, but indulge me here.
Gaug is G with a raised 5th. Edim is Em with a diminished 5th. If you whack those altered tones out and put the perfect 5ths back where they belong, then you have a major chord G and it’s relative 6 minor Em with a shared interval (G>B).
Any major chord has a diatonic minor relative with the root a major 6th away, and sharing that major 3rd interval. This is why major licks work over relative minor chords. Just think of the major triad as Ionian scale tones 1-3-5 and its relative minor as 6-1-3 (1 - 3 shared maj 3rd). For the IV - ii chord relationship, it would be scale tones 4-6-1 and 2-4-6 (4-6 shared maj 3rd). You can figure out the V - iii related tones.
But, if I am understanding Paul Franklin correctly, augmented and diminished chords are ambidextrous. They can be used in minor or major contexts. I certainly use diminished chords and licks as dom7b9 types as often as I use them as minor-flat-5’s, and augmented chords and riffs as minor-major7ths as often as dom7#5 (or dom7#11).
I am still left with my head spinning about an augmented chord having a diminished chord as a relative minor. Plus, it just sounds a little pervy somehow... |
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Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
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Posted 9 Jul 2020 1:21 am
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Joe Pass was mentioned earlier as having said that he sees chords as either major or minor, but what I’ve heard him say is he sees chords as major, minor or dominant. He includes diminished and augmented chords as dominants. He said he just puts a root on a diminished and an augmented would be a dom7#5. To be clear, he was talking in the context of playing lines, not comping.
Edim becomes C7. Depending on the context, pick any note from Gaug as the root and add the appropriate b7 for an altered dominant (b7#5).
This really has nothing to do with relative maj/min chords and scales but if you’re playing lines in music where dominant chords are king it’s pretty useful. |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Jul 2020 3:56 am
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It would be safer if we stopped playing both major and minor augminished chords for now, at least until this pandemic is done...Lots of people are stressed now and hearing one of these may be enough to push someone over the edge
| b0b wrote: |
I used to do that, until a song came along in A minor that used the G major scale. The dorian mode really surprised me at that point.
Also, a lot of times when a minor song goes to the 5 chord, the scale changes. Like you're playing along in A minor using C major licks, and suddenly there's an E7 chord. |
That's a great idea. I was just reviewing Newman's "Minor Chord Connection" course where he said to do just that (play G-maj scale over A-min chord). The Dorian of the G-maj sounds better to me than the relative C maj scale would against an A-min chord because the G scale has a 6 major interval instead of a 6 minor (that's the only difference). The Minor 6 is a very sad and depressing sounding interval (only a flat 2 sounds worse) and I don't like it. At least a minor 3, minor 7, or flat 5 can sound bluesy...
I remember watching a theory video on YouTube where a guy said they often substitute the natural diatonic 5-Min chord in a minor scale tune to something like dominant (the E7 you mentioned) because having too many minors can sound too sad and depressing.
"Street Theory" summary:
To play over any minor chord (ex. A-min chord, A is on fret 5), go up 3 frets and play the Major scale there(C-major scale, on 8 fret) OR go down 2 frets and play the major scale there(G-maj scale on fret 3). those should work most of the time.
That is what I'm exploring now. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2020 6:38 am
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Santana music is all about Dorian mode. Am7/D/Am7/D is a ii7/V progression in the key of G.
If the song is in the key of C, I wouldn’t want to play Dorian over Am, especially if the next chord was F or Dm. That F# note just sounds out of place to me, unless it’s in the middle of a chromatic run.
The 1/4/5 progression in Am is Am/Dm/E7. Cmaj scale riffs work, but are kind of milk toasty compared to A harmonic minor sounds.
Am / Dm6 (or Bm7b5) / E7 / Am would be very common in Gypsy Jazz, Bossa Nova, and Salsa music, and harmonic minor scale arps and licks can work all the way through. |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Jul 2020 4:19 pm
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Thanks for the examples, Fred. I happen to really like Santana's playing so Dorian may be my thing.
I'll have to try some of the progressions you listed. Although a very recognizable and fancy progression sometimes is not as great as something more simple but with really good licks and harmonies. |
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Franklin
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Posted 10 Jul 2020 11:06 pm
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My advice is to learn street theory and always stay out of the weeds.
For instance...There are books with chapters written on tritone substitutions. The teachings are all correct but the application info is way overcomplicated - remember authors need enough words to fill chapters in a book so any known shortcuts are usually avoided..I found this is usually the case with most music theory books - heavy on the weeds fills pages.
Pertaining to street theory...So in a lesson after telling Lenny Breau how confused I was trying to improvise because I was really trying to locate the tritone substitutions on the fly. Honestly trying to apply those methods the book taught for locating them was far too complex...
So here is exactly what I needed, Lenny said, "There's no time for that *#@*, The tritone is one fret above the next targeted chord, that's it man!" I asked towards taste, how and when should I apply them? He said, at first don't over use tritones - Let your ears adjust to how you sound playing them" You will eventually see and hear their intervals everywhere in Jazz.
In a few sentences I got my street theory, tossed the book into a closet, and heeded from arguably one of the greatest and innovative Jazz guitarists his street smarts.. Lenny perhaps saved me a year or so with a few sentences. Always look for shortcuts towards application - aim straight at your goals and stay out of the weeds when you can help it
...There are lots of theory shortcuts.
Great thread!
Paul |
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John Alexander
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Posted 13 Jul 2020 4:29 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| I think what we’re missing is a weed whacker. I’m no music PhD, but indulge me here. [Snipped] |
I understand your analysis and agree that it is logical. However, I've come to the conclusion that it is simply an error to apply the terms "relative major" and "relative minor" to chords. It doesn't generate a lot of confusion to apply these terms to the tonic triads of major and minor keys, but the temptation is to then extrapolate to other chords and try to draw conclusions about them, where the result is likely confusion, complexity, and a certain amount of nonsense, with no useful product.
Imagine rehearsing with another musician who says, "Hey Fred, when we get to the second measure, instead of playing Emin7(b5) let's play the relative major." What??? 
The simplicity of relative major and relative minor is expressed in the following definition from a music dictionary:
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| RELATIVE, term used to indicate the fact that a common key-signature is shared by one major and one minor key: e.g. E minor is spoken of as the relative minor of G major, and G major as the relative major of E minor, both having a key-signature of one sharp, and modulations between them being accordingly of a simple kind. Jacobs, A New Dictionary of Music (1971). |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2020 5:09 pm
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| John Alexander wrote: |
| Imagine rehearsing with another musician who says, "Hey Fred, when we get to the second measure, instead of playing Emin7(b5) let's play the relative major." What??? |
I would answer with the same question.
Once you get beyond Major 6th and Minor 7th chords, the theory of relativity goes a little south for chords. But it is very useful up to that point. I could substitute Cmaj for Em7b5 in a certain specific context, and play C mixolydian licks over it, but it is not what I think of as a minor/major relationship. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2020 7:46 pm
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| John Alexander wrote: |
| Imagine rehearsing with another musician who says, "Hey Fred, when we get to the second measure, instead of playing Emin7(b5) let's play the relative major." What??? |
Yeah, that's a problem. I'd say, "Okay if I flat the 3rd then?", and play Gm6. 
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2020 8:03 pm
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| Or F#7b+. More of Paul Franklin’s “weedsâ€. |
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John Alexander
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Posted 13 Jul 2020 8:17 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| John Alexander wrote: |
| Imagine rehearsing with another musician who says, "Hey Fred, when we get to the second measure, instead of playing Emin7(b5) let's play the relative major." What??? |
Yeah, that's a problem. I'd say, "Okay if I flat the 3rd then?", and play Gm6. |
Hey, I'd call that a pro shortcut! Did you study with Lenny Breau too? |
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John Alexander
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Posted 13 Jul 2020 10:23 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Once you get beyond Major 6th and Minor 7th chords, the theory of relativity goes a little south for chords. But it is very useful up to that point. |
If you are the guy in the rehearsal saying "Instead of C6 in the third measure, let's play the relative minor chord," are you confident of what chord the other guy is going to play, without further discussion?
I could imagine you might mean Amin(b6) (notes A, C, E, F) because of the overlap of notes with the C major scale. But then you might mean Amin6 (A, C, E, F#) because in the key of A minor that chord would be more likely to be used as a tonic chord the way C6 is commonly used in C major. But then, one poster above suggested that Amin7 should be the relative minor chord of C6 because the two chords share exactly the same notes, though I wonder if you wouldn't want to reserve Amin7 as the relative minor chord of Cmaj7 or C7.
Whatever interpretation you give to the "relative minor chord" in this context I would expect to be found valid and useful in Treeceology.  |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 14 Jul 2020 2:57 am
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If one doesnt want to complicate things with a lot of theory, then simplify to... Every Major triad has a relative minor !
Major triad with 6th in bass (6th acting as new root note for the relative minor)
If this doesnt seem to apply/fit then it is because you we are faced with a.....
Major triad with a b6th in the bass (b6 acting as a root to produce an augmented chord sound)
so... if the I and the IV and the V each have a relative minor, then you know 6 of the chords in the key you are in.
in the key of C
IIm and IV or Dm and F
VIm and I or Am and C
IIIm and V or Em and G
Hint.. The A pedal will take you directly to the relative minor from "no-pedals" position (because it change the what was 5th to a 6th(new root note))
The bass player can turn your major chord into a relative minor any time he/she wants to 
B.Erlandsen
Zumstell S12extE9 7+7 |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2020 7:17 am
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| John Alexander wrote: |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Once you get beyond Major 6th and Minor 7th chords, the theory of relativity goes a little south for chords. But it is very useful up to that point. |
If you are the guy in the rehearsal saying "Instead of C6 in the third measure, let's play the relative minor chord," are you confident of what chord the other guy is going to play, without further discussion?
Whatever interpretation you give to the "relative minor chord" in this context I would expect to be found valid and useful in Treeceology. |
New word from Encyclopedia Alexandrica 👨ðŸ»â€ðŸŽ“ (The relative minor of Bengtology)
The bands I play in are music theory deserts. I would expect the guy to play Cm as the relative minor to C6.
Nope, not kidding. |
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John Alexander
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Posted 14 Jul 2020 5:41 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
The bands I play in are music theory deserts. I would expect the guy to play Cm as the relative minor to C6.
Nope, not kidding. |
In a way I'm with your bandmates, not having previously encountered the use "relative minor" or "relative major" in relation to specific chords. I too would probably guess that some variant of Cm is intended, but it's a little like trying to guess what someone means by the "radius" of a square. Even there it's possible to imagine what someone is talking about, but it sure could lead to confusing conversations.
But in terms of playing a steel guitar (not my main instrument), it occurs to me that the notion of relative major and minor has great practical significance with respect to the locations where the related chords are found on the instrument, i.e., where you can find a major 6 you will also find a minor chord. To that extent, I think I may understand better how the notion can be useful, even with respect to major 6 and minor 7 chords as well as triads. |
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Dave Ristrim
From:
Whites Creek, TN
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Posted 16 Jul 2020 4:48 am
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| Excellent thread. It's actually got me inspired to revisit the fretboard and hash out some chords. |
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Bob Bestor
From:
Ashland, OR
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Posted 23 Jul 2020 5:22 pm Can someone explain this?
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| Franklin wrote: |
| The tritone is one fret above the next targeted chord, that's it man!" |
I don't understand what he is saying here, let alone how to apply it. Can anyone get me going in the right direction?
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