Lower 6, or raise 7?

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Contemplating a change on the knee lever that raises strings 1 and 2, whilst lowering string 6.

I'm thinking the string 7 raise will serve me better than lowering 6.

Talk me into it (or out of it).

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

This was recently discussed here:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=356551&start=0

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Lowering 6 to F# gives you a split G with the B pedal.
Raising 7 gives you just one note and no split.

Also lowering 6 means you can drop the 3rd of the chord in all three positions. Wouldn't be without it.
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Franklin · Posted 25 May 2020 1:46 am

There are a lot of modern voiced chords with both the A and G# in them. The 7th raise allows and opens the door into those options...The 6th lower does not provide the same as the 7th raise and vice versa...I look at both choices as being separate musical gifts to harmony. They both imitate each others sound but neither replaces the others unique gifts.

Paul

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I lower the 6th a full tone and the half tone split. I also raise the 7th but only a half tone instead of full tone like many do.

I've had the 7th string half tone raise since 1972 when Johnny Cox put it on my Emmons. When I got the Franklin, in 82, I had that change put on it too. Johnny told me Buddy Charleton called it his Ernest Tubb lick change. I've found other lick uses for it over the years.

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

If you lower the 6th on one inside lever, and lower the Es with the other, you can achieve an additional I-IV or V-I change, similar to the A/B pedal combo, by simply squeezing your legs together.

Burlington set up many Emmons guitars in this manner in the '70s. Can't help but wonder whether Buddy pioneered it.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

I wonder if Emmons used the 6 lower on a Sho-Bud because of the split to a G, not possible on the P/P's. I believe later he may have commented that the 7 raise was a good one because it made more combinations available. So I wonder why he didn't use a 7 raise on the P/P? Habit? With the 7 raise you can also eliminate a lot of slack you have to leave on the B pedal to accommodate the lower.

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Paul, your answer to Cody in the thread Donny mentioned hits the nail on the head.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Lower 6?
Raise 7?

Have your steel set up to do both, per recommendations above.

You'll be glad you did.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Hey Ron; I do...except I lower 6th a half tone>

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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

For what it's worth I'm planning to move the vertical knee on my Mullen to make it a second RKL just because I don't really like half stops. The Mullen has the best half stop I ever had and I still find it difficult to get the pitches just right.
Right now the vertical is 5th string lower to Bb but I don't use it often.
My RKR has been like this for years and very useful for the dominant 7th in pedals down as well as replacing the 3rd E9th pedal. Been using that since about 1978.
Never had thought of lowering the 6th string to G#, but if Paul likes it I should give it a try.
My 3rd & 4th pedals give me A6th on all 10 strings and every knee lever works something nice with that.
The first pedal is kind of new to me. There is the obvious minor chord, but with the 2nd pedal I get two inversions of a diminished on 3, 4, 5 & 6.
May not suite everybody, but I like it! Embarassed

Oh yes, Pedal 5 is the wild one! Laughing

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Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

for me its both. Raise 7 is with raise 1 and 2 I removed lower 5 (1/2 tone) and replaced it with lower 6 (whole tone) on the V Lever. A good deal of my playing is based on 5+8, so as long as I have 8 up and 8 down, and I can actually move the bar, I don't miss 5 lower at all. 6 Lower is now almost a necessity.

I have recently added 5 whole tone drop to the V lever so 6 and 5 both drop a whole tone.
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jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Hi Tony,
Thats some interesting ideas. I'd never thought to put the 1st & 2nd string raise on the lever with the 7th raise. My only worry in that would be three pulls on a knee when one of them is 3 half tones and the other two are whole tone raises? My weird tuning with the C#'s on 2 and 9. I've tuned this way for years.
I like the 1st & 2nd string raises on a pedal because it becomes a wild effect lick pedal as well as having two unisons so close together.
I may try that on one of my two PSG's at home if I ever get home again. Corona19 has us stuck in Oregon unable to return to Saigon until mid July and then a 14 day quarantine there. We left for one month to attend the Texas Jamboree in March and thats now turning into 5 months away from home.

Here in Oregon I have my Promat D-10 which has the whole tone drop knee lever on the 6th string with the 1st string raise to G#. I have to admit not doing much with it yet. Maybe some woodshedding on that lever while stuck here would go a long way! Very Happy

The Promat has 8 & 4 so no V lever, no lower on the 5th string.
This PSG is also the first PP I've ever owned so I'm not skilled in making changes to it. Lynn Stafford set it up so well that I'd hate mess it up. Whoa!

Except for the 2nd and 9th string C#'s it's a very standard D-10 E9th and C6th set up. I've been working on getting used to the C6th neck since it's the only two neck PSG I have. C6th and it's changes being very new to me.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

[quote="Ian Rae"]

J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

Hey Andy, I am not much of a picker but I started learning with a knee lever that raises the fourth E to F# and thru the years have taken it off but all ways go back to it. It is a good lever to have. My friend and mentor Jim Florence (RIP) had that on his Z.B. and told me he got it from Ralph Mooney. I like it, J.R.
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

the entire conversation is not only interesting but important and very relevant. Thought provoking .

For years I had only played a 4 lever guitar and always knew 6 drop along with 1 raise was a severe conflict, BUT, I wanted 6 lower, over 7 raise. SO, 6 drop was on the same lever and I learned to play it based on "movements" and string selection. While my primary guitar now is a 6 lever guitar, set up with NO conflicts, I still have my 8+4 P Pull set up with the conflict . 1 up and 6 down on that same pesky lever.

Its an understanding and execution that comes with paying attention with movements and string selection.

Funny thing, I admit, I probably play a bit different on the 4 lever guitar than I do on the 6 lever guitar. I'm certainly a bit more aware. On this guitar I lean towards 6 drop way more than 1 raise, on purpose.

In addition, not having 2 UP on this guitar creates a whole new mindset , the unison note with 4 comes a fret up with lowering 4 on the lever. ! Its thought provoking and yet at the same time allows for a better understanding of the tuning and hidden capabilities. Move the bar ! What a concept !

My band mates have no earthy clue of the differences between the two Steels and neither does the audience ! I do, and that pretty much is all that matters. Sometimes on the 4 lever guitar its like a little game I am playing "inside the song" based on movements and positions. Sometimes I grab a phrase and say to myself " how about that" while the rest of the band is just moving along in auto pilot.

Very Happy

_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Franklin · Posted 27 May 2020 10:27 pm

Merle Haggard was asked about songwriting skills. He had such a deep way of looking at others or he wrote about what he knew and personally lived...It was Merles mindset towards composing those words that set him apart. As did Dylan, Hank Williams, Cole Porter, etc...They developed the mindsets to take them into any musical direction...Although they wrote in different directions they wrote using the same thread. They went straight toward what works and avoided getting sidetracked.

I teach mindset towards musicianship...The easiest way to improve immediately is to change the mindset. That is the fastest way I found to improve my playing.

For Example:

A whole tone lower means "Only 1 String Lowers" if I view it that way. That is the typical mindset... Now change that mindset to seeing this part of a pedals function - move the bar up two frets as we lower that string a whole tone and we get the sound of all the strings being raised a whole tone against the string that is lowering. And vice versa with the raises - the bar will move back the same distance as the raised string to get the sound of all strings lowering against the raised string...Now I have doubled what each pedal and lever can provide me.

That simple piece of knowledge opens up all the lowers into being raises - All of the raises are now lowers. The mindset viewpoint changing can give me so many "Flipping a switch" moments...seeing it this way I can focus on mastering the coordinated Bar Move timed with the lever or pedals function as it heads in the opposite direction from the raised or lowered string. Accomplish that mastery and the lever or pedals function is never noticed. Now I start learning new ways to use each pedal and lever due to a new viewpoint...Getting better requires thinking differently.

That mastery - the bar moving against the pedal change - is why Lloyd plays so many complex sounds with such a simple copedent. As he says about his pedals and levers "he has everything he will ever need - its complete" Lloyd mastered the instrument towards his musical goals... Seeing the instrument using this perspective opens up more possibilities.

I advise my "New Players" to go to their favorites or the very best players like a Buddy, TW, Doug, or my setup and copy their pedal setup and placement verbatim. Start learning there because those masters have all they need to play anything...So now the student has a masterful guitar to learn how to play music on. I also advise new players to resist changing copedents...The common sense approach of copying a successful copedent guarantees all of the brick wall issues are taken out. That pedal placement is maximized due to how well and how much that player plays..Its really common sense...If you want the possibility of playing like a Tiger Woods copy his clubs, his stance, his work ethic, etc.

To look at what steel players are doing to their setups without musicianship knowledge of how the instrument is played we only need to look at its sibling - the guitar...

What if guitarists within the standard tuning started moving the same notes to different string positions. One player says I play strings 5 and 1 together a lot so I put them together on my guitar and its so much easier and it works great so I put strings 4&6 together and 2&5 together...Then he says I am trying to get into the single note riffs and I can't figure it out."I am really struggling with the single notes"...That in a sense is what the community has been advising new players...So the new player thinks, "Hey these old guys say there is no standard setups, which is not true, The E's always lower together and have to access the A&B pedals" etc..So as they start chasing the latest greatest change on one of these threads they soon get stuck in the mud either because they combined it with something else on a lever or they placed a usable change in the wrong position rendering it unusable.

But as a community are we doing the student a favor when we encourage them to experiment because we did? As a kid I had the best mentoring both in career choices and towards how to better my musicianship.

In the PFM I warn the class as Emmons told me as a young teen..."Kid, You better get a bigger rake"..I was wearing him out saying "So and so says this and so and so says that etc. I was trying to do what everyone was saying and wanting to play like Buddy could...He knew I was chasing my tail instead of moving forward. His words "Need a bigger rake" woke me up. I started following a straight line towards my goals.

Nobody can have every pedal change, but if you want to play the most possibilities sitting at your guitar those pedals better be in a specific order to maximize the math of possibilities. Positioning and string combinations are written in stone.

There are many logical copedents and combinations in the students world to copy...Terry Crisp, Tommy White, John Hughey, Lloyd, Hal, Doug Jernigan, Buddy Emmons or my copedent are great copedents to cop due to how much music they can play. And if new students have combinations on the guitar they just purchased that are not found or placed like these masters have them then that says the guitar is arranged wrong.

My 2 cents
Paul

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

thx for that Paul. "You need a Bigger Rake" Thats Gold !

While I do not profess or make any claims to be any sort of expert, far from it, but I have always subscribed to redundant positions , be it on the 6 string or the Steel with various Ped , lever or string choices. Sometimes they make sense other times they create more havoc, too far from simplicity and ease of movement . But its still a learning adventure.. "don't do that "

Years back I was sitting with my friend John Fabian at a show somewhere, I was poking around on one of his Steels, I was playing something and proving that being awkward can still achieve results as difficult as that can be. John looked over and said , why don't you use that other lever , play that off the 9th string and move the bar ? HUH ? use the 9th string , that other lever and move the bar ? You mean that other lever actually does something ? Laughing

Well, point made and grounded in concrete ! Very Happy

Another point that you made so clearly, levers or Peds are not JUST for the obvious. Years back E was talking to several of us at Scottys and someone asked him about moving I believe one of his E Levers. The person seemed to make sense in why it can or should be moved until E replied. His reply was so simple. Something like..If all you do is use it in a single position then move it, but thats not what I do with that lever , its only ONE thing I do with it. If its moved , I will lose multiple options. Apparently this is the "bigger rake" he referred to and it went right over our heads ! Very Happy

_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Franklin · Posted 28 May 2020 7:13 am

Ian,

Since the late 60's and early 70's a lot of things had evolved that Winnie chose to ignore in his book... The technique had evolved into a 3 element blocking technique and I credit Buddy Emmons as the first to discover which 3 elements work best... The sound of Buddy's playing is certainly the catalyst driving me and others to evolve our techniques into the 3 element approach. Who in the 70's wasn't trying to get that crisp single note pick attack which was Buddy's sound?

Buddy's notes mimic the guitarists dynamic ability. Whereas the strict palm blocking (as Oahu, Jeff, and Winnie taught) gave players a very dampened or muted sound. To play fast notes with strict palm blocking - the palm rests on the strings near the bridge - Hence the muted tone. Buddy's evolved blocking allowed him to play every length of note from legato to staccato without sounding muted and because Buddy's hand was not resting at the bridge as is Winnie's perfect position, Buddy could go farther into expressing his music with a new gained ability. By the time of the Black Album - Buddy had mastered the use of "picking dynamics" in his single note improvisations. Just listen to the variation in dynamics when all the notes are not at the same volume level...Some of Buddy's notes were picked harder and others softer. He had the technique to emphasize rhythmic phrasing, just as Wes Montgomery and Pat Martino applied to their notes. The 3 element technique allows that access..Winnie's nor Jeff's teachings taught the tools to create that kind of accessibility into expressive phrasing to enhance musicianship. I am not putting them down, I am just saying they taught towards the early 60's and students today will not get all of the tools they need from those early teachings.

Ian, I am a stickler for preserving history...The move you mentioned with pedal C goes back to around 1966 or whatever year Buddy dropped his G# to F#...Lloyd showed me and I'm sure other players that move. I would always ask him if he was going to add a change and he would say no because I can get it like this...Lloyd is always helpful to show anyone there is another way such as using that C pedal move...Viewing what pedals offer is exactly how Lloyd was getting the most math out of every change on his guitar. It's good that you see the math, many don't see it. This has been fun and it is a subject rarely discussed. Stay safe over there!
Paul

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