Players switching from D-10 to U-12

Bob Miano · Posted 27 Apr 2006 5:53 pm

How many of you D-10 players have made the switch or have tried to make the switch to a U-12 ? I have been contemplating this for some time but was wondering what
roadblocks got in your way. Is it hard to get used to not having the same strings ?(For me it would be like trying to teach an old dog new tricks as I have been playing for 25+ years with a D-10)
Just wondering....
Thanks,
Bob Miano

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Here's a small thread:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/011338.html

I had both, and one thing I found difficult about the 12-string was getting used to the two strings below the 10th. If you're used to the chord grips on a 10-string, it will probably take a while to adjust. The 9th string as a B kind of screwed me up as well, although dropping it to D on a knee lever can produce some cool licks as well as doing its practical job. but then I'd have to drop it further down to the C# on another lever......ahhhh.

.....just my two cents. There are many Universal players here with way more experience than me. I traded mine a few months after getting it.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I like to jump around on different guitars. If your familiar with the C6th, then switching will probably be a piece of cake. That was what helped me the most was being familiar with E9th and C6th. Took about two weeks and then was I shocked at how easy it was. Just lower the E's and your there. I really like the extra low end on strings 10 & 11 also. I play a Carter S-12U every weekend and I've just completed getting a Carter D-10 ready to play the way I like which is a soft feel on pedals and Kl'ers. So I'll probably be switching back and forth until I sell the D-10.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I don't have a U12, but I've played several. If I were starting out today it would be a U12. But, having always played a D-10 and at age 68, I don't plan on buying another steel.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I've been playing a U-12 almost since dy one, and fine it hard to play on 10 strings. All the bass is missing, and then there's that darn D string where it's supposed to be a B.

Having all that extra bass on the E9 is very cool.

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My web site

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I have switched from the D-10's to S-12 Universals & back & forth several times, I am presently playing an S-12. I actually learned almost all the 6th stuff on the universal. Without those bass strings on E9th [for rhythm when I sing] I would be a lost soul, just gotta have those. If you give universal a chance, you can do it, but you have to stick with it awhile.

Ernie

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John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

I switched to U12 about 15 years ago. It was difficult. You need to practice A LOT and bond to the guitar. I had never taken any kind of instruction courses. After a talk with Jeff Newman, I got a couple of courses and video tapes from Jeff for the E9/B6 setup. It sure did speed up the learning process.
It is true that the 9th string requires some getting used to, but you can also play some neat stuff with the low strings.
I am glad I switched to the U12.

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www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

HI Bob, I have been thinking about U12 too as I am planning on buying a new steel in the next few months. I am a little concerned with the negative opinions regarding keeping it in tune on both sides of the tuning.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

only one word, Bo
BULLoney

Listen to my CD's in my sig below
Do they sound out of tune?
Does Reece sound out?
Does Joe Wright sound out?

Phoney baloney argument.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Larry, so what do you think is the motivation in propagating negative opinions of the U12...the most obvious is more sales = more $ from selling D10's?

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

I made the switch from S/10 to U12 a couple of weeks ago. Wish I had done it sooner.

I was always against a U12, but it was because I was scared of it, and was afraid it would take to long getting used to it.

It's taking some mind changing on my part, and some getting used to on grips, and I'm no where near getting full potential out of this guitar, but I wish I had changed long ago.

The added bottom end is just great. Love it.

Larry

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"Fessy" S/D 12, 8/6 Hilton Pedal, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Tim Bridges · From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

I switched to U12 in February. I don't have tuning problems anymore now, than when I played D-10. I don't play any worse on the U12 and have actually learned a few things. It makes more sense to me using the B6th rather than C6th tuning for knowing where I'm at on the fretboard. Dropping the E's is not a big deal. I don't have a lever lock and have not found maintaing the E's lower with the KL to be an issue either. I think alot of it has to do with the acceptance of the U12. It broke from tradition. This to me is a similar debate as to what is country music.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I played a U-12 for many years and about 3 years ago I changed to another form of E9/B6 as I really didn't use the low B that much. I've always tuned the 2nd string to C# so I moved the low G# & E to positions 11 & 12 like on an extended E9th and added another C# string in the 9th spot. I have a knee lever which raises the 2nd and 9th to D so it's in the same slot as a regular E9 which is nice. When my E's are lowered I have that C# note right between the 8th and 10th strings so when in B6th it's used just like the middle F# on E9. I have the scale positions 1, 2, & 3 right in line. There are some C6th players who have taken the low C off their tunings and added a D note in the 7th position which is the same thing I have. The tuning looks like this:



   <  ^  >  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  <  >


F#


C# D#    D


G#                A


E                                F# F  D#


B     A#       C#    C# C#


G#                A  A  A#


F#          G#             F


E                                F# F  D#


C#       D                    C


B  A#          C#             A#


G#                A


E           C#             F  D#

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

David Doggett · Posted 28 Apr 2006 7:23 am

Here’s a big recent thread on this topic: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/011976.html

When I went from S10 E9 to an S12 universal I was temporarily thrown off because the center of the neck, where the position markers are, was moved from between strings 5 and 6 to between strings 6 and 7. Without realizing it, I had been keying on the markers for my grips. To help readjust, I took a red marking pen and ran it down the side of my 8th string, to help me relearn where this root string is in relation to the position markers. After awhile I became use to the fact that the center of the neck on a uni is between the wound strings and unwound (unless you use a wound 6th string), and I no longer needed the red marker.

I am puzzled by the worries about conflicts between JI tuning for
E9 and B6. I looked fairly closely at the relationship in theory and by ear, and I have found no conflict for the main chords. There is a good reason for this lack of conflict in theory and practice. The tonic chord of the B6 tuning is the V6 chord of the E9 tuning. In a JI scale, there is of course no conflict between JI intonation for the I and V chord. Even the 6th of the B6 chord comes out right on the money. Also, Abm, the relative minor in the B6 tuning is the same as the IIIm (G#m) in the E9 tuning (the E-lower lever). Both those chords work out fine for JI. Also, pedal 6 (of D10 C6) or the uni lever that lowers E to D works out. I have not looked at the theoretical JI of the other B6 pedals, but I have not heard any glaring problems with them. So I don’t think JI or tuning by ear is any more a problem for a uni then it is for E9 alone or C6 alone. With any of these tunings, if you push it hard enough looking for every conceivable theoretical grip, you run into problems for JI tuning. But the standard chords and grips that most players use most of the time work out fine.

Also, the lack of instruction material is a bogus fear. If you learn to read tab for both D10 and Uni, you fairly easily adapt to translating the minor differences. Each D10 instructor’s tab is for a slightly different E9 or C6 copedant anyway. So when looking at material from different instructors, you always have to make minor translations anyway. The minor translations required to adapt D10 tabs to a uni are no more difficult.

There are legitimate reasons to prefer D10 to uni, and to prefer uni to D10. But lets get rid of the bogus excuses.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

David Doggett · Posted 28 Apr 2006 7:41 am

With respect to Jerry's tuning and standard extended E9, the problem I have is not so much the missing low B (uni string 12), but the missing low root for the relative minor tuning (C#m) you get with the A pedal. This is a very powerful position for blues, rock, jazz and classical music. That low minor root is essential for power chords or the low root in this minor position. On a uni you get over 2 1/2 octaves of minor and pentatonic chord and scale notes in this position - it's become my second home on uni. But of course in traditional country, I don't use anything below string 9 (string 10 on standard E9), so it all depends on the type of music you mostly play.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

David D.

My "bogus" reason was I just afraid of it! That in itself is "Bogus", it's cool, I'm learning and having fun doing it.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Bo,
I have my own feelings. I believe it is as much inertia as anything. Pro players don't switch because they are double neck players and don't want to take the time to adjust. The D-10 is just part of their way of life. The two tunings are so different they must be separate. We all know that there are single tuning players from Newman to Joe W to Reece to Julian to Bill Stafford and others who will blow your socks off so whether it CAN work is not an issue. Those folks (and me and lots of others) made that conscious decision to play a single tuning and, FOR US, it works better than two tunings.

I guess what peeves me the most is the number of pro players who badmouth a U-12 as being a 'kid's toy' or 'just not the way to go' rather than leaving that decision up to the individual. They just laugh when people mention a single 12 universal. I can name names but won't. I HAVE heard it. I also know that the VAST MAJORITY of these players have never played a single neck universal tuning for long enough to get used to it and are NOT speaking from experience. I AM. I have done both and still prefer a U-12.

Is U-12 for everyone? Probably not. Even though I have 8 and 8 on my main guitar I recognize that there's no way that I can cram as many changes on my single neck as one can on a 10x10 D-10. That's the only real reason I can think of that would hold a D-10 player back. The only other reason is PERSONAL PREFERENCE -- which I grant D-10 players even though many of them don't reciprocate.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 April 2006 at 09:37 AM.]

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

I am with you on this Dave & Larry, after playing 6 string and E9 for all these years, I know I will not get lost on the B6 side of the tuning. I am not concerned about the "lack" of instructional material. I imagine that Jeff Newmans' and Reeces'stuff will be all I need. I don't like to read tab all that much anyway.I prefer to exercise my ear, find the right voicings and play what sounds good to me. The positives for me are that I will not have to learn a completely different neck and I already squeeze a lot of 6th style stuff out the E9 thanks to watching Buddy do it at a show up here back in the day.
I am more concerned about the stuff I have been told that you can't get.. the big lower down in the baritone sax range that I heard from Mr. E.
I need to try one out and decide for myself. Maybe when I go down to Virginia for the show in Vienna I will stop in at Billy Coopers and see what it's all about.

[This message was edited by Bo Borland on 28 April 2006 at 09:37 AM.]

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Well, after slogging thru the 3 pages of postings on the link Dave supplied, I am more sure than ever that I want to at least try a U12. It seems the + out weighs the - for me anyway. Maybe I can get to one of your gigs in Philly Dave.

Mike Ester · From: New Braunfels, Texas, USA

I played a D10 for 22 years before switching to a S12U last October. It took about a week to get comfortable with it, and I really like it. A lot of my decision was based on reducing guitar weight. I read all the threads here about the Uni (Larry Bell's Web site was the dealmaker), and made the plunge. YMMV.

David Doggett · Posted 28 Apr 2006 10:34 am

Bo, I'm playing this Saturday night with The Blues Messengers at Ludwig's (1300 block of Sansom St., Center City, Philly). Next month we'll be playing back-to-back at Anglesea on the 19th (Germantown Ave., Mt. Airy section in NW Philly), and at Ludwig's on the 20th. Both nights we'll be joined by Ginetta on trumpet (http://www.ginettasvendetta.com/pages/1/index.htm). Should be tons of fun.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

U12/14 is the guitar of the future. Now.

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

This discussion is at least 35 years old, as I remember in 1970 a very talented D10 player criticing Reese's U12 playing, and giving me his reasons why one universal tuning is inferior to the D10 approach. As much respect as I have for this player, I can only find inspiration in Reese's, and other universal tuning pioneer's performances..... (that's a great big Duhhh!)

When I decided to get a new steel ('95), I stood back and re-evaluated everything I had been told, and took a good look at my personal E9 copedant (already had droped the 9th string "D", and added a low E 20 years earlier).... I could see no reason to not go the Universal route.

As mentioned above, getting used to the change in grips gave me some trouble for a few weeks.... however now I would never consider going back, and like Mike I have trouble playing a 10 string E9... it just feels like part of it is missing. I never realized how I was automatically indexing my grips to where my thumb was... very interesting actually.

With that said, I still restring my '70 MSA D10 so I have a standard C6th for quick comparisom to standard tabs (and I really am fond of the old gal

) I've forgotten half of what 6th playing I used to do (played in a swing band for many years in the '70s), so I can actually relearn on the U12, and no prob.

I know other U12 player do this too, but I added lowering my 2nd string D#->C# on the same lever that lowers my E's->D#'s... equivalent of having both G and D in the "C6th tuning" (which is of course B6th on mine). I also should be branded with the scarlet letter (L)... because I had Bud (and John) put a lock on this lever for me, they agreed to do it after the repremand proved usless on me

.

To sum up, I wanted a guitar that would force me to "grow" as a steel player, and that I got, fer sur.

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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

I think you should get Larry Bells album, "Friends In Cold Places". Larrys playing and tone are "as good as it gets".
You can check it out at Larrys website at the link below:
www.larrybell.org/index.htm

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Dave, I have tix to see RENT in Wilmington tomorrow nite.. if it ends early enuf ( and it can't be early enuf for me!) I am coming up to the city to check you out.
Bo

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