C6 copedent choices

Wayne Bergman · From: British Columbia, Canada

New member here, thanks for the great forum.

I have recently bought a C6 Lap Steel 6 string and enjoying the process of learning how to play it. I love the Pedal steel sound so this has me thinking I will want to move to Pedal one day but still lots to learn on my non pedal before taking the Pedal journey.

I think I would prefer to stick with the C6 tuning if and when I make the move to pedal but a few things have me a bit confused on the copedent choices regarding C6.

I like the sound of the E9 going from the one chord to the four chord while working the A and B pedals. I donâ€™t see this function of raising the 3rd of the one chord to its fourth and then the inversion to the new four chord that happens with the A and B pedals like on the E9 copedents. Is there a reason this same function is not copied on the C6 neck or am I missing something?

I have not actually played a pedal steel before, at this point I am just trying to understand the copedent workings of E9 in relation to the C6 so I can make the right choice when I get to the point of buying a C6 10 string Pedal.

When I read how the E9 copedents work with the A B & C Pedals I think this is how I would like a C6 copedent to work for me but there must be good reasons why I have not seen this E9 copedent style used on C6?

Thanks in advance for any help on this â€¦â€¦â€¦wayne

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Although there are certainly workarounds , E9 is set up to play I-IV-V diatonic harmony very efficiently. C6 lends itself much more readily to chords with upper partials, and more complex chord progressions.

You can still play I open, stomp on 6 for IV, and slide up 2 frets for V, but itâ€™s not as â€œdiatonic.â€

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

if you're looking for E9 sounds and functions combined with C6, then a Universal tuning is probably the way to go. best of both worlds

of course you've got a 4 chord right there in root position on C6, using no pedals at all. it's a major 7th but that can be fixed by raising the Es to F. then pedal 7 gives you the 5 chord on the top 5 strings... it's a 6th chord but again, raising the Es to F makes it a dom7 V chord. so you do have I, IV, and V in a single position on C6, same as E9.

the great thing about pedal steel, regardless of the tuning, is you can add most any change you want within reason to get what you're after.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Wayne Bergman · From: British Columbia, Canada

Thanks so much for the info folks.

I guess where I am coming from - is on the one hand, I am learning the C6 neck with my lap steel and when I transfer over it would be nice to continue with the same tuning but the one main sound I really like on the E9 is the kind of walk in sound with the B pedal being hit just before the A pedal transforms the one chord fully to the four chord. Also the functionality of the B and C pedal from E9 going to the minor 2 is also a second function I can see me using with the C6 tuning so in my mind just three pedals set up this way on a C6 might be all I would want or need.

I mostly play Country and simple stuff not so worried about all the jazz chord sounds etc that I may loose going with a 3 pedal C6. The photo attached shows a rough sketch on what I think could work for a copedent but maybe If I want that A B pedal sound to the 4 chord I just go with a traditional E9.

So trying to make a long story short here - has anyone made the effort to have the A & B pedal mimic the E9 function on there C6 tuning. Its just such a cool sound I would think it would be important to have on a C6 function just like it is on an E9?

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

I can get that sound on my C6 going from F to Bb in open position by raising the Es to F, As to Bb, and Cs to D. I don't use it much for the stock E9 sound but it's there if I want it.

on the other hand it's easy to get a 6th chord on E9 by lowering the Es (B6 open), pressing pedals A & B (A6 open), or just pedal A (E6 open).
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1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

If you want an E9 sound, itâ€™s easily available on about a million E9 guitars without reinventing the wheel. The techniques youâ€™ve learned on C6 lap will carry over. The head start switching from C6 lap to pedal isnâ€™t huge, comparatively, and the advantages of the tuning donâ€™t include much of what you appear to want.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Those E9 sounds arose from the pedal action on that tuning, not the other way round - they did not exist in the abstract waiting for the mechanism to arrive.

There are clever players who can fake some of it on the C6 neck in an emergency (such as breaking a string mid-song) but it's like putting screws in with a hammer.

As Ken suggests, while you're learning to deal with pedals you might as well do it on the tuning which will readily yield the sound you seek. It's so easy to pick up a cheap E9 Smile

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Greg Milton · From: Benalla, Australia

Hi Wayne,

Another idea for your consideration is that one of the most prolific E9 session men of all time, Pete Drake, originally played mostly C6 in a very original style in the late fifties and early sixties and had pedals that replicated the E9 A and B pedals on his C6 (he raised his high G to A and his high E to F). He still had those pedal arrangements in 1975:

He spoke about his C6 style in an interview here: https://www.petedrake.net/media/

You can check out this playing style on this instrumental album from 1962: https://www.discogs.com/Pete-Drake-The-Fabulous-Steel-Guitar-Sound/master/740516

Good luck with your pedal steel journey!

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

Why not take some ideas from Sneaky Peteâ€™s B6? Move it up a1/2 step. Look at his first two pedals. Add a few more C6 changes and maybe youâ€™ll have what you want.

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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I think Ian summarized the fundamentals very clearly.
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Michael Sawyer · From: North Carolina, USA

First,I am NOT advising you to do what I did.
I was playing C6 lap steel in a band,and bought an old Fender 400.
I set it up in C13,using E9 type raises and lowers.
I did this because I didn't know any better.
I still play this way.I play outlaw country and southern gospel.Any faults in my sound are me,not the tuning...

My advice is when you get a pedal steel,learn E9,you'll be glad you did.

But old Sneaky Pete was an awesome B6 player.

Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

Welcome to the Forum, Wayne.

Bobby Lee, the founder of this forum, has done something like that, with his D6/G 8 string and his current D6 10 string copedent.

Click LINKS at the top of the page, and then "bob" to get to these copedents. Since you are already thinking in terms of scale degrees it should make sense. Notice that the C pedal function is achieved by adding a lever to the A&B pedal combo.

I don't think it can be emphasized strongly enough just how powerful a tool for playing diatonic harmony we have in even a basic E9 3 pedal, 3 lever 10 string pedal steel.

I would suggest you should keep on picking that lap steel and start scheming to get a solid E9 pedal guitar. It's the right tool for the job.

I hope you have been warned about how addictive this can be.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I play a D6th copedent that's the same as C6th but a step higher in pitch. I added those two pedals from E9th as pedals 1 & 2 for the very reason you articulated - I wanted that I to IV major sound.

Almost all C6th players play double neck guitars with E9th on the other neck. I used to do that as well, but changing strings was a real chore, and changing necks on a per song basis seemed unnecessary to me. The "Hybrid D6th" copedent is a workable compromise. You can read all about it at https://b0b.com/wp/about-b0b/bobby-lees-current-copedents/#s10.
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Wayne Bergman · From: British Columbia, Canada

Thanks so much everyone. Great info. I will continue to chip away at my lap steel as I may be 6 months away anyways before I am ready fund the pedal purchase. Lots to learn and thnk about in the mean time. I will follow up with all the links posted and thanks again.........wayne BC Canada

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Despite my conservative outlook outlined above, I must say you sound like an excellent candidate for b0b's D6 setup.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Thanks, Ian. This has been coming up a lot lately, so I just now wrote a page about putting D6th onto a S-10 4+4 instrument. I hope that it serves to demystify the tuning.

https://b0b.com/wp/2020/05/d6th-hybrid-s-10-44-concept/
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Franklin · Posted 13 May 2020 3:45 am

Hi Wayne,

Here's an example of some Country playing using the basic Buddy Emmon's pedal copedent. It's a great tuning. I use it often for its tonality on Country sessions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE30Ixh8nrs

Paul

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

David Wright and Jr Knight don't seem to any problem doing beautiful E9 stuff on Bb6,,,

Steve Waltz · From: USA

Pauls' video is a great example and is also only a part of the E9 type of sounds you can get out of the normal C6th pedal set up. Rock pedals 6 and 7 on the 2nd and 3rd stings and see what you get. You can get Mooney sounds also with those two pedals. Yes you have to move more and the full chords aren't there as much, but there is a lot there. Add in some slants and you have more.

I can hear it now....why bother, just play the E9 neck........................Because if you know your C6th tuning well already and don't want to start learning a whole new tuning and you can get enough E9th sounds out of a C6th tuning almost right a way, why not do that? Also why screw up what you have memorized already by moving it to some other key? I know there are reasons but if you want to get going and play music, why make it more difficult than it needs

I forgot to say, this requires two feet on pedals and makes volume swells not possible in many cases so if that is really important to you, then there is a downside.

Wayne Bergman · From: British Columbia, Canada

Thanks a bunch guys, this all gives me a better understanding of things and I can also refer to this post and study its content especially as I get closer to making the move to buying a PS.

I have suscribed to Paul's great lessons on the C6 pedal a few weeks back and have enjoyed that as well so it was great to see him chime in on the discussion and add to the knowledge we share here.

Enjoying the journey........wayne

Franklin · Posted 13 May 2020 12:11 pm

Hi Wayne, Anytime I see the C6th mentioned I try to chime in because I love playing the tuning so much. You are more than welcome and thanks for joining the class!
Paul

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