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Topic: Sho-Bud 6140 |
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 3:58 pm |
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Was first Bud was an S-10 with 6&1 tuned to E9th when I bought it used in 1975.
I don't know if it was a 6139 or a 6140 but it had good tone.
Only had that until I bought my Cross Over with 7&1 a couple of years later.
I ended up ripping out the crossover parts and used the 3 racks no longer used on the front neck to add 3 knee levers.
That made it 2&4 on the E9 and 5&1 on the C6. Much more useful that way.
It had really good tone and kept in tune best of all the Sho-Buds I've owned.
Also might account for my bad back today.
Now I have a Mullen G5, Star Guitar and Promat. All of them built much better than any Sho-Bud. One thing about an older Bud is they look like they were made in a muffler shop by someone who failed welding class... Very rough underside, Rach & barrel need extra care to make them work well, but then you have unlimited raises and lowers. They need a fair amount of attention, but they do have great tone. 
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Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 4:24 pm
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
Yes, you'll want my E9 strings here>
https://www.jagwirestrings.com/shop.html#info3-45
You can shop for all the other stuff in the steelguitarforum store as you can see at the top...ACCESSORIES...etc.
I haven't taught in over 10 years; so not sure what/where all the material you want...but the steelguitarforum store is where it is all at.
Ricky |
Thanks again! I will check your site and SPGF store site is down due to C-19. Stay well and safe! -Les |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 9:01 pm
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No that's not "MY SITE" those are my Strings on; the "Jagwire Strings" site....but yes this is my E9 strings from Jagwire.
Ricky Davis
E9th Nickel
1. 013p
2. 015p
3. 012p
4. 014p
5. 018p
6. 022w
7. 026w
8. 030w
9. 034w
10.038w
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 9:43 pm
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| Man, that Fulawka is gorgeous. Those Canadians, eh? |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2020 4:38 pm
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
Yes, you'll want my E9 strings here>
https://www.jagwirestrings.com/shop.html#info3-45
You can shop for all the other stuff in the steelguitarforum store as you can see at the top...ACCESSORIES...etc.
I haven't taught in over 10 years; so not sure what/where all the material you want...but the steelguitarforum store is where it is all at.
Ricky |
Ricky, Follow up question please - I have the 6140 all set up - even though I have all six pedals connected - how do I know that each pedal is operating (bending) properly? Any information out there on how to adjust.
That’s again for all the tuning info you sent. -Les
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Sho-Bud 6140 - Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2020 4:49 pm
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Les; that is a loaded question; as I have no idea how it is currently working or pulling proper or not. Setting up Rack and Barrel is one thing; but having the right distance to pull a certain rack that is pulling certain strings to their pitches...
You NEVER want to turn the rod to adjust the barrel until you engage the rack or knee lever that you are tuning. Otherwise you will turn the other barrel that is on there for another pedal you are not tuning cause you didn't engage yet.
Search on here. "How to tune Rack and Barrel"
Go up to top of page where you sign in and click "Search" and then click the "Click "here" for the simple Google search" and put in that question about tuning rack and barrel and then you will get a bazzillion pages of learning everything we all had to learn how to adjust and tune these barrels. Good luck.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2020 7:09 pm
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Wow! Thanks for the quick replay - and will do a search - also yes I read about making sure the pedals were down when adjusting - although I didnt catch the reason - and you now have made that very clear. Thanks again! -Les
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Sho-Bud 6140 - Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 12 Apr 2020 9:04 pm
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| Bob Watson wrote: |
| Was the Sho Bud on the cover of the Joaquin Murphey album that came out in 1976 a 6140? I always figured it was a custom built Sho Bud built to his specs. I didn't even consider the possibility of Sho Bud building a single neck C6 pedal steel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGx0xqgJUZg |
That steel was never owned or used by Murph. It came out of Scotty's store inventory and was just a prop used for the cover photo.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 12:30 pm Issues Tuning
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Questions about Sho-Bud 6140 (serial number 2790) – E9 Pedal Tuning (Copedent) – Rack and Barrel system – Pedals on left side when seated – (not centered like some 6140s)
I’m a complete ‘Newbie’ and I apologize not knowing all the proper terminology – and after searching the SGF and the Net/YouTube for info and solutions to no avail - here are my issues.
1. Pedal (1) and Pedal (3) tuning String 6 (Open B Note) (.018p) – when pressing down either pedal the rod is pulled – but no change in Note/Tone to try and tune to C# - however – as show in the pictures attached - the pin ends are attached to the same Rod and the pin ends do not move when the change mechanism moves due to:
a. In Pic 1 – Rod 5 (top right 5th barrel rod) travels through the inside housing which is sticking out farther then all the other rod housings.
b. This is causing the rod pins for Pedal (1) and Pedal (3) to extended farther away from change mechanism – so when the pedal is pressed the slack does not engage either of the two pins. – see Pic 2
c. Looking for a repair solution – is the main problem causing the extended housing in Pic 1 – a loose spring – or a tightening issue?
2. Pedal (4) tuning String 2 (Open D#) (.015p) – when pressing down Pedal (4) and turning the barrel – the tone/note does not change at all?
a. Not sure what to check to resolve this issue?
b. Also, when turning the barrel – is it clockwise to raise the note and counter-clockwise to lower?
3. Maintaining the ‘Rack and Barrel’ system. Since this system is older – I’d like to learn how to self-maintain the 6140 - remove the rods and pins and to clean and check if parts need to be replaced. I have the patience and love to tinker – however am I making a big mistake trying to do this on my own?
In closing, thanks for taking the time to painstakingly read though all of this – and any advice will greatly be appreciated! Thanks! -Les
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Sho-Bud 6140 - Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 12:52 pm
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With the small Allen screw on the barrel, slide the barrel until it comes in contact with the rack, then tighten it back up. Now the rack will pull the barrel when the pedal is depressed.
Some of your barrels appear to be fully compressed at the spring. Not good.
The threaded screw part of the barrel (the part that actually touches the rack) should start off being screwed in about halfway thru it's thread to the other part of the barrel.
Make sense? That way, there's enough travel room for the screw part of the barrel to tune in either direction - flat or sharp.
Also, don't lube that screw part of the barrel with machine oil or WD40. You want some resistance within the screw/thread so the thing doesn't untune itself as you play. |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 1:18 pm
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| Skip Edwards wrote: |
With the small Allen screw on the barrel, slide the barrel until it comes in contact with the rack, then tighten it back up. Now the rack will pull the barrel when the pedal is depressed.
Some of your barrels appear to be fully compressed at the spring. Not good.
The threaded screw part of the barrel (the part that actually touches the rack) should start off being screwed in about halfway thru it's thread to the other part of the barrel.
Make sense? That way, there's enough travel room for the screw part of the barrel to tune in either direction - flat or sharp.
Also, don't lube that screw part of the barrel with machine oil or WD40. You want some resistance within the screw/thread so the thing doesn't untune itself as you play. |
Excellent - thanks! I think i got what you have explained - and I will proceed with your recommendations. What about Pic1 and the part that sticks out a bit?
Thanks again Skip! -Les
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Sho-Bud 6140 - Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 1:53 pm
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| Not too sure what to tell you about that thing in pic 1. You might ask Ricky D...I'm sure he knows more about it than I do. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 3:02 pm
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Pic 1 looks like an overtuning, like the barrel is too tight and activating the raise finger. Back off the barrel to halfway, and give the rack some slack.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 3:22 pm
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I don't think the string five issue is over-tuning, both the barrels on string 5 are slack. It looks like it's just stuck in the raised position. It's possible (likely) that the raise arm is pulled off the stop bezel.
Look at the pic below, yours are the type on the far left. There are little slots cut into the ends of the raising and lowering arms on the finger. Those slots fit over a projecting flange on the stamped steel bezel that you can see in the end plate window. It's possible to pull the raise arm too far such that it slips out of alignment and becomes stuck in the fully activated position. If so it's a simple matter of shifting it with a screwdriver or something to realign the slot with the stop flange so it drops back into place.
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 3:34 pm
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Hi Leslie,
Where are you in New Mexico? Someone there may be able to help in the setup.
.......Pat |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 4:00 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
I don't think the string five issue is over-tuning, both the barrels on string 5 are slack. It looks like it's just stuck in the raised position. It's possible (likely) that the raise arm is pulled off the stop bezel.
Look at the pic below, yours are the type on the far left. There are little slots cut into the ends of the raising and lowering arms on the finger. Those slots fit over a projecting flange on the stamped steel bezel that you can see in the end plate window. It's possible to pull the raise arm too far such that it slips out of alignment and becomes stuck in the fully activated position. If so it's a simple matter of shifting it with a screwdriver or something to realign the slot with the stop flange so it drops back into place.
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Thanks for the info and pic - and for politely catching my error - I called .018p B note the 6 string and it's 5 as you mentioned! For Pic 1 - So I would use a screwdriver to try and realign back over the 'stop flange' ? Do I do that from the outside end plate window or inside where it is sticking out? If inside - which is what i'm guessing - not much room to get screwdriver in there since its the top row - suggestions? Also, what about item 2 - string 2 not tuning when pedal 4 held down and barrel turned and no change in tone. Thanks again! -Les
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Sho-Bud 6140 - Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 4:59 pm
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| Leslie di Leva wrote: |
| Ian Worley wrote: |
I don't think the string five issue is over-tuning, both the barrels on string 5 are slack. It looks like it's just stuck in the raised position. It's possible (likely) that the raise arm is pulled off the stop bezel.
Look at the pic below, yours are the type on the far left. There are little slots cut into the ends of the raising and lowering arms on the finger. Those slots fit over a projecting flange on the stamped steel bezel that you can see in the end plate window. It's possible to pull the raise arm too far such that it slips out of alignment and becomes stuck in the fully activated position. If so it's a simple matter of shifting it with a screwdriver or something to realign the slot with the stop flange so it drops back into place.
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Thanks for the info and pic - and for politely catching my error - I called .018p B note the 6 string and it's 5 as you mentioned! For Pic 1 - So I would use a screwdriver to try and realign back over the 'stop flange' ? Do I do that from the outside end plate window or inside where it is sticking out? If inside - which is what i'm guessing - not much room to get screwdriver in there since its the top row - suggestions? Also, what about item 2 - string 2 not tuning when pedal 4 held down and barrel turned and no change in tone. Thanks again! -Les |
So I think I'd like to disassemble both the changer and the rods and barrels - clean them and reassemble. What is the order of removal and then reassemble operation? So after I remove the strings - I'm guessing I remove the rods and barrels - then underneath changer housing - then the top of the changer housing or does the changer housing come out (top and bottom) a section at a time? Lots of springs and screws - so I will keep detailed track of removal. What do you - others - think - am I crazy to try this? Thanks for all the help! I truly appreciate it! Everyone has been very helpful! -Les
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Sho-Bud 6140 - Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 7:27 pm
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You're right, to keep a detailed track of how it was hooked up. You might want to compare it with the copedent chart Ricky Davis gave you, to see if it might have been set up as he had described (string number vs raise/lower), to reset it, if it is compatible to/or at least understand what it was supposed to do. Luck with the unit.
.....Pat. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 19 Apr 2020 8:06 pm
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Les, yes these old Buds are super simple since there is only one rod for each string's raise or lower. Just make a map of the which strings have rods and which pedal racks have barrels then pull them out. You could label the rods, but if you start with the longest rod at re-assembly and work backwards you'll find the correct rod locations will be fairly obvious. Once the rods are off, remove the lower return springs from the bottoms of the fingers, the raise helper springs at finger bases, tap the changer axle out from one end with a wooden chop stick or something similar and the fingers will come out of the bottom.
It doesn't hurt to scratch an index mark on one end of the axle before you pull it out so you know which side was up. A guitar this old will likely have a lot of wear on one side of the axle, this is the pressure side along the top of the fingers and around toward where the strings attach. When you re-insert the axle you'll want to rotate it 180 degrees to get a better surface.
You can also just replace the axle if you have a few tools available. You'll want use drill rod or something hard. These work well: https://www.mcmaster.com/93772a121, just cut the head off with a cutoff wheel or even a carborundum blade, grind a slight taper at the ends. Do not overheat or you can ruin the temper. |
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Leslie di Leva
From:
CA, USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2020 4:44 am
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
Les, yes these old Buds are super simple since there is only one rod for each string's raise or lower. Just make a map of the which strings have rods and which pedal racks have barrels then pull them out. You could label the rods, but if you start with the longest rod at re-assembly and work backwards you'll find the correct rod locations will be fairly obvious. Once the rods are off, remove the lower return springs from the bottoms of the fingers, the raise helper springs at finger bases, tap the changer axle out from one end with a wooden chop stick or something similar and the fingers will come out of the bottom.
It doesn't hurt to scratch an index mark on one end of the axle before you pull it out so you know which side was up. A guitar this old will likely have a lot of wear on one side of the axle, this is the pressure side along the top of the fingers and around toward where the strings attach. When you re-insert the axle you'll want to rotate it 180 degrees to get a better surface.
You can also just replace the axle if you have a few tools available. You'll want use drill rod or something hard. These work well: https://www.mcmaster.com/93772a121, just cut the head off with a cutoff wheel or even a carborundum blade, grind a slight taper at the ends. Do not overheat or you can ruin the temper. |
Ian, Thanks for all the detail - I'm going to give it a shot this coming weekend - silly question what type of workbench do you use - when you turn the PSG over do you lay it on foam - some other soft service? - i assume need to take the string winders off - I know stupid question.
Thanks again for your time and all the details! -Les
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Sho-Bud 6140 - Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 20 Apr 2020 7:18 am
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| No, you don't need to take the tuners off...just place the steel upside down on a soft piece of carpet. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 20 Apr 2020 11:56 am
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What Skip said. A stand is nice but not imperative. I made a simple one that is adjustable for different guitars, even for amp chassis. b0b also sells an adjustable work stand in his accessory shop but it's shuttered at the moment because of the lockdown.
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 20 Apr 2020 12:46 pm
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I have a set of these…
Every now and then I see them on eBay. |
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Leanne Douglas
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 30 Jul 2020 2:50 pm Sho Bud 6140
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Hi eveyone. I live in Australia. I’m a newbie here. New to PSG but an old muso from way back...and singer. I’m a very accomplished guitar player for a female...lol!! Any way, I have been given on loan and probably to keep, a Sho Bud 6140 E9 conversation. I’m addicted to it. Anyway I’ve been having a tuning issue with the C pedal. The 4th string won’t do much. I’ve contacted Michael Yahl for some help there. I have a question. With the hex tuners how do you know what way to turn them. On mine it can be either forward or back to raise the note. Not all 11 tuners raise or lower in the same direction. Unlike regular guitar tuners.
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 30 Jul 2020 4:17 pm
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How much time have do you have?
The short answer to the first part of your question is: the upper row of cap screws on the end plate control the raise function for each of the 10 strings, the lower row control the lowering function. Turning them clockwise increases those functions (raising or lowering) and vice versa.
It appears that your left knee lever lowers strings and 8, your right-knee-right lever lower string two, it appears all other pedal and lever functions are raises. Your pedal setup on the first three pedals appears to be "Emmons" A-B-C. It's hard to tell exactly from your pics but it looks like pedal 5 doesn't do anything, pedal 6 is cut off in the pics so ??
The 4th string raise is adjusted with the cap screw on the upper row for that string. When you engage just the C pedal, turning that cap screw clockwise will increase the pitch of that raise (E to F# for the C pedal). When you say "the 4th string won’t do much" do you mean it doesn't raise 4 when you engage the pedal? If you're not able to adjust it properly as described above there could be a lot of different reasons. Rack and barrel tuning has a few quirks that are different from more modern systems with nylon nuts, the barrels have a little projecting nib from the internal spring that catches on the rack and hold the barrel in place to enable tuning from the end plate. If this little nib get broken or sheared off there is no way to tune it from the end. Your guitar also has some mix and match parts so there's no telling what affect that may have on tune-ability relative to how it was originally designed.
Whatever issue you're having is likely fairly simple to remedy, but it's hard to offer much specific advice without more info. If you're new to PSG it might be also hard for you to describe the issue in a way that makes sense. "Overtuning" can also be an issue for the uninitiated, a good place to start to learn about that would be Jon Light's thread about it here: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=326460
Your best bet though would probably be to find someone local who understands PSG, it's likely a fairly simple and quick fix but could take a while to sort it out here. If you're game there is a lot good advice to be had here. |
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