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Topic: How to get the best tone on your steel guitar |
Albert Svenddal
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Warren Johnston
From:
Blenheim New Zealand
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Posted 1 Apr 2020 3:32 pm How to get good tone |
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An excellent presentation Albert.knowledgeable and informative. Looking forward to your next video.
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Carter Universal,Quilter Steelaire combo,
Zoom MS50G. |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 4:27 am
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| Good talk Albert. Other than weight, what makes you happy with the Quilter over your previous amps? |
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Albert Svenddal
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 4:48 am
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The Quiter has a tube like sound. Especially when using the limiter.
It comes very close to the old Fender Twin tone I love.
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Williams D-12 9x7, Emmons PP D-10, 8X5, Quilter SteeAire amp. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 5:11 am
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| I had a Quilter Steelaire Rack and used with an Eminence EPS-15C speaker. I got a "good" (acceptable, not great) tone with it. I decided to ditch the separate piece concept and go to a combo amp. I sold the rack model and speaker and bought a Steelaire Combo. I could never get near the sound I got with the rack/EPS-15C speaker combo. I even installed an EPS-15C speaker and still too many highs. Pat Quilter worked directly with me trying to help me but no go. I sold the Steelaire Combo and went back to my Nashville 112 (with a Telonics speaker). Later I saw a comment on the Quilter Facebook page from a well known Nashville steel player that the "problem" with the Steelaire combo was the too narrow width of the cabinet. I also tried the TT12 combo and found it lacking for me. |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 5:14 am
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| Thanks Albert. Have you tried or checked out Fenders new Tonemaster Twin? So far I'm satisfied with mine, at least for home use. Haven't got the chance to play it out. I have a variety of amps including a Quilter micropro mach2 1x12 combo. The Micropro lacks the additional low mid of the Steelaire and outboard eq wasn't much help. Extension cabinets made improvements but I'm not sure a different speaker in the Quilter cabinet would help. I should have found a Steelaire, but I see some trends in taste points in other directions. Keep up the good work. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 2 Apr 2020 12:58 pm Excellent vid!
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This is a great video, shows how much prep goes into playing out or recording sessions if you do it right.
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- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2020 6:54 am
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Tone is subjective, it's impossible to teach. I read on the forum about how much everyone loves all the past great players tone. I think most of it was for sure, but it's theirs...tried by many to copy, most fail. Interesting that we as players can usually tell who is playing the classic recordings. The best I think anyone can do is advise from their opinion or vantage point.
Tone, like technique, comes from time spent on the instrument, practice and gear trials.
I'm personally rather disappointed in that most modern pedal steel players sound mostly alike to me. Of course not including all, but many.
Just play..and like Blind Lemon Jefferson said(I think), 'if it's in ya', it's got to come out!' |
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Albert Svenddal
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 3 Apr 2020 7:32 am
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Jeff, I agree that many of the modern and younger players do sound the same.
I believe two factors are involved. First, everyone wants to sound like their favorite. And one of today’s is Paul Franklin. Secondly, so many players depend upon outboard effects to make them sound good. Without the effects, they can’t play. I have gone back into the archives and heard players like Jimmy Day and Lloyd Green simply plug into an amp, no effects of any kind and very little reverb and sound absolutely killer. They had their own sound.
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Williams D-12 9x7, Emmons PP D-10, 8X5, Quilter SteeAire amp. |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 4 Apr 2020 3:48 am
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Having owned Zumsteels, MSA Millenniums, and vintage Sho-Buds, including a round-front Pro II, I find trying to break steel guitar down into a simple dichotomy of P/P vs. Sho-Bud is not very accurate. I have to say I've never seen or played a push/pull - but have played 2 Zums and a Stage One.
Johnny Cox recently posted that he also thought there were two distinct tones. For him, they were vintage or modern. Personally, I find this view better reflects my own, and what I hear in music, both old and recent recordings.
For Johnny, Vintage included Sho-Bud and Emmons P/P in one group - not the two extremes. He contributes a lot of the vintage tone to the old-school pickups. Here is his forum post:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=350344&highlight=permanent
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he wrote in a FB group that he compared his P/P Sho-Bud with some very early P/P's recently, and felt like they were very close, and that what difference there was was probably due to the difference in pickup windings and construction technique.
2 years ago I was selling my round-front Sho-Bud Pro II, so pulled it out, cleaned it up, and set it up how I thought it should be to sell it. I then compared it to my Millie, both through the same amp, a Stereo Steel. I personally thought the Millie, with Alumitones, had more of a vintage tone than the Sho-Bud. The S-B had new Truetone pickups wound for the vintage S-B tone per Ricky Davis' recommendations. I liked the S-B. More, as I recall from when I first had it partially set up a number of years ago, than my Zum I owned at the time. But in all cases we are talking subtle differences.
I doubt many people here will agree with me, but in my experience amps, pickups, and speakers affect tone far more than the guitar itself. If you want a vintage tone, get a vintage pickup, or one that matches it, and play through a vintage amp. Look at the success Todd Clinesmith has had recreating the vintage Bigsby tone. And as for grouping all steel builders into Sho-Bud vs Emmons tone - I'd guess you can make far more difference in tone by having two identical guitars with different amps and pickups that two different brands of modern guitars with the same pickups and amps.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with Albert, or anyone. I thank Albert for taking the time to put his thoughts on tone down on video, as it is a complex topic. And Albert and I have come to similar conclusions on some aspects - I play through a Quilter 202, and use George L cables as does he. I just felt the need to express my thoughts on tone as it relates to manufacturers and other gear. As many have noted before, we all hear differently. I suppose scientists can record and analyze "tone", but ultimately, we each process that "tone" as produced by our instruments though our individual auditory paths, as well as preferences built up over years of listening to music, and the results can be quite different.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Albert Svenddal
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 4 Apr 2020 5:02 am
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Doug, thanks for your thought provoking response. You make several excellent points.
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Williams D-12 9x7, Emmons PP D-10, 8X5, Quilter SteeAire amp. |
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Paul King
From:
Gainesville, Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2020 5:14 am
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| Thanks Albert for posting this. I have found if you do not like the way your guitar sounds you will fight playing. You have given some great insight on this subject. |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2020 9:21 am
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Albert, thanks for an insightful and well thought out video.
Years ago I 'chased the "tone" carrot around the track' for far longer than I care to admit. Also, I agree with what Johnny Cox has said in his post (See the link that Douglas posted earlier in this thread), that PSG tone really is vintage versus modern, rather than a comparison to the classic tones of the Emmons P/P versus Sho~Bud.
Over the years I've only played Emmons P/P (S10, S12 and D10) and Sierra (S14).
Amps have been an Ampeg Gemini, Peavey Artist, Peavey Nashville 400 and currently an Evans SE-200. All legitimate choices for good tone (accept, maybe the Ampeg amp).
Sometime around the late 70's I became intrigued by all the effects the Buddy Emmons skillfully incorporated in his playing. So I started incorporating a myriad of stomp boxes in my rig set up. Ultimately, this lead up to me using a Peavey Profex unit.
The problem with using effects is, unless a player really takes the time to know when and how to use effects (this could be a whole separate study course) they can negatively effect his/her ability to play well, sound good and accurately hear pitch. That's what happened to me. Insidiously, it got to a point where my instrument became the driver for my effects, rather than the effects enhancing the sound of my instrument. Worst of all, my inability to hear whether my fretting was accurate became a detriment to my playing - and I had been playing for quite a few years. I didn't become aware of the pitch problem until, thankfully, it was brought to my attention by a bandmate.
At that point, I began woodshedding at home without using any effects, including the reverb on my amp. By doing so I was able to rediscover the tone of my instrument, as well as redeveloping good right hand and left hand technique. Eventually, I reincorporated an occasional minimal reverb on my amp.
Since that cathartic change I've been happy with my PSG tone. It's the tone I hear in my head. My amp settings are dialed-in and I very rarely have to make any changes, regardless of venue or playing volume.
My complete rig, for about 17 years is: a 1977, lacquer-body, Emmons D10 P/P (with aluminum necks and original pick ups), into a Goodrich 120 volume pedal with a 500K ohm linear potentiometer, into a 2001, Evans SE-200 with it's original 4 ohm, 15 inch Eminence "Delta" speaker. For many years I used Belden 8410 instrument cable with Switchcraft plugs. Eventually, the cables became worn out and needed replacing. After much research I settled on Mogami W2524 cable http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/guitar/
with gold-plated Neutrik plugs.
While it might not be the answer for everyone, going to a basic rig has been the answer to finding the tonal holy grail for me.
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
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Steelin' for Jesus |
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Kenneth Kotsay
From:
Davie/Ft Lauderdale, Florida
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 11:45 am
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Excellent Albert, well worth the time you spend on your video presentation. Enjoyed it, thanks.
The strings you described, Steel Joy, the price of $1.50 per string , 011 thru 020. not bad at all. Right now I'm not to sure I'll purchase them yet since I have a box full of strings for my steels.
Now here's what I'm asking of you, can you do a video of your playing using your new Williams and your Quilter Steelaire amp.
Before you play why don't you demonstrate to us how you tuned in your settings, i.e. start off at the "O" position on the amp settings: tone, mid, base, vol, reverb and go from there.
Then do a comparison using your Peavey 112.
I know I'm asking too much from you, I think the forum community would be very please at your attempt I haven't seen this type of instructions on the Forum (Youtube).
Ken |
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Thomas Alexander
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Apr 2020 10:12 am
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| That is a great idea Ken. I would very much be interested in hearing a side-by-side tone comparison of the Steelaire vs the Nashville 112. |
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