Pedal / Knee Lever Relationships

Alan Sim · From: Lancashire, U.K.

Hi All

Nice simple question ??? Bet the answer is'nt.

Can someone please explain ( In simlpe terms ) the relationship between the pedals and knee levers.
My guitar is a 3/4 setup,I try to use combinations of both,but I guess I am doing it wrong,as not much happens.

I need to get this in my head in order to progress further.

Thanks

Alan

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Hi Alan,
here's a very basic combination: use the B and then the A pedal in combination with the lever (K below) that lowers 4 and 8 a half step. With that lever alone on open strings, the basic grips (10-8-6; 8-6-5; 6-5-4; 5-4-3) give you G# minor or "iii" to the open E major.

3---------3----------3B-----3B


4---------4k---------4k-----4k


5---------5----------5------5A


6---------6----------6B-----6B


--------- 7-----------7------7


8---------8K---------8K-----8K





10--------10---------10-----(10A)





E major--G# minor----B7------B9


----------K----------K+B-----K+B+A

By substituting string seven for string six (and 1 for 3) you change that chord to B major (or "V" of the open E).

Now bring the sixth and third strings back into the picture with the B pedal added and you have B7, the very important V7 harmony to E major.

Finally, add the A pedal with these string combinations and that V7 becomes a V9, a very useful chord for adding a blues/swing sound. Note that I have put the 10th string in parenthesis. Since that string gives the bass root of the B major chord, I prefer not to include it with the A pedal down in this combo. In fact, I usually use the C pedal instead, but then one has to watch out for the fourth string which will no longer be simply lowered to D# (on my Dekley it ends up in tuning limbo).

With all that working the A and B pedals, I like to put my 4+8 lowering lever on the right leg, going against the somewhat more standard placement as LKR.

Well, that's ONE combo: there are dozens of other possibilities.

Dan

------------------
Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH

[This message was edited by b0b on 06 April 2006 at 12:30 PM.]

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

My advice: go to this site, spend 14 USD's, get this book, read cover to cover and do what it says. Then you'll understand much better IMHO.

Edited to remove, what is evidently, some disturbing verbage.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=1291050

Phred

------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 05 April 2006 at 01:24 PM.]

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I would second the motion to get Winnie's book: it's what I learned on too.

But frankly, if learning three chords at one position confuses you, the pedal steel may not be a good instrument for you.

(You may also want to tear out pages 78-80, etc. of Winnie's book which will also confuse you by suggesting the same sort of chord combinations I gave you above

)

Dan

------------------
Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Such and easy process..

[START]
Read Winnie from cover to cover
Go back to [START]

Been doin' it since 1977

Alan Sim · From: Lancashire, U.K.

Hi Guys

Well,judging by the replies so far,maybe I asked the question the wrong way round.

So let's try this.

What chords would using the Knee Levers give me,or What chords would I be looking for that I would need to use them.

By the way,the first thing I bought was Winnies book,all I lack now is the time to read it.

Dan Beller-McKenna wrote
"But frankly, if learning three chords at one position confuses you, the pedal steel may not be a good instrument for you."

Well Dan,
Most people think I'm doin alright so far,just lookin for a bit of guidance.

Thanks

Alan

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Sorry Alan, didn’t mean to offend: that comment was directed more to Fred. As one who teaches for a living, I never feel comfortable simply telling someone to look it up in a book. They could have thought of that themselves as, indeed, apparently you have.

Now I'M the one who’s confused: do you want to know how to combine pedals and levers, or just what chords you get from using a lever?

You asked originally for how to combine the knees with the pedals so I showed you one of the most basic combos (more basic still would be combining the A pedal and "F lever" to get a major chord).

Might be helpful to have some idea of what you already know about harmony and whether you are familiar with the six-string fretboard.

Dan

Randy Reeves · From: LaCrosse, Wisconsin, USA

Winnie's book is in the mail to me finally.

one thoing that helped me was to find all the chords on the neck using the pedals and levers.
it was east because I used a Mel Bay chord chart.
it's big, and laminated.
it was clear and easty to understand.

it revealed to me the secrets of the pedal steel.

of course I have much to learn, but now I have a good start.
I suggest getting that chord chart.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

That Mel Bay chart is good and quite useful.

But Winnie's book will open up a grand vista for you.
Good call ordering it.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I would also recommend the Mel Bay Pedal Steel Chord Chart. It is indispensable!

Alan Sim · From: Lancashire, U.K.

HI Dan

No offence taken,it's just that I'm more practical than theory,and find it easier to understand if someone can point me in the right direction.

Combining the A/F lever combination is still new to me,I have only been playing 3 months,and have only used the A/B pedals so far,but I need to expand my playing, so maybe an example of using the Pedals/Knee Levers would be of more use to me.

I know it's not a simple question to give a direct answer to,as there are so many combinations.

I have played 6 string for 40+ years,and I understand the relationship between the A/B Pedals and the fretboard,the difference between using the bar with the pedals up or down moves the chords up the neck,that's how I am able to work out how to play the few songs I have posted.

I guess I am trying to learn the Steel in the same way I learnt the 6 string,maybe that's where I'm going wrong,but I wouldn't swop the Steel for anything.

Also got the Mel Bay chord chart and the Bruce Bouton DVD.

Sorry if I haven't asked the right question.

Thanks

Alan

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Dan I certainly didn't intend to demean your method, but I think that a lot of teachers forget to remember that a lot of folks don't know the number system as well as they do. From the initial post, I, too, assumed that the gent is looking for beginner's explanations, the reason for my comment. No, derog intended, but I also have been teaching for some period and I simply think the Winston tome is the place to start. It's evident the gent doesn't have access to a teacher or he probably would have gone there. It's also evident that his first question confused me also.
Phred

------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Dave Marshall · From: Ontario, Canada

I made a 12 fret 10 string sliderule of the neck layout from corrugated carboard and rubber cement.

I used numerics written in a black felt-tip pen so that it would be useful in any key.

If you make one you have to leave a bit of excess on the ends of the sliders so you can push and pull them to get the chords. Also a few extra frets so that you don't get blanks at the ends.

Two edge pieces at top and bottom, and two cross members 12 frets apart keep the sliders from falling out.

Use equally spaced frets so the numbers on the sliders line up when moved. I have found half-inch wide sliders and frets to be adequate.

You may want to add a slider with fret numbers on it to identify different key positions.

The price is right, and it is good for checking alternative tunings also.

[This message was edited by Dave Marshall on 05 April 2006 at 08:06 AM.]

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

Alan,

Basically it's this.

Try the below in *open* position:

1.no pedals = E chord, right? With a few options in there, like the b7 on string 9.

2. Mash (or "depress," if you don't live in the South) A and B = A chord, right? Again, options are available, like adding the 7th string would make it an A6.

Now let's do what you asked: work combos with knee levers (or "lavers" if you are from the South)

3. B pedal + the E-to-D# lever = B7 chord

4. A pedal + the E-to-F lever = C# chord.

5. E-to-D# lever only = F# minor chord
_________________________________________
Again, adding other strings to these basic combos produces variations of the chords indicated.

Alan, go from one combos to another until they start to get smooth.

And . . . get Winnie's book . . .

Above all, have fun. Chris

------------------
Carter SD-12 Extended E-9 with 5 & 6; Peavey N 112; Small Stone, Hughes & Kettner Rotosphere.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Alan, I am a beginner and i have heard your playig and you are miles beyond where i am at, I suck at theory so my names may be wrong but maybe this will help some:

A and F(left knee left) will give you the major chord four frets up from the root. So strings 345 no pedals at fret three is a Gmajor, at fret seven strings 345 with A+F same chord different inversion, G major. Slide back and forth between the two. Hope thats right, dont have my guitar in front of me.

AB pedals down to AF one fret up and then back to AB a fret down againis a nice combo.

The B and D combo gives you something nice, a diminshed or a seventh or something? I think the F all by itself lever gives you a diminshed which repeats every four frets?

Maybe I got that all wrong? I hope to learn something from this thread as well... Cheers.

[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 05 April 2006 at 08:18 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Alan,
Karlis Abolins' Guitar Map is pretty handy
Download it, then include the copedent or pedal & knee lever set up on yer steel
you'll then find chords & scales in many positions :
http://home.comcast.net/~k.abolins/guitarmap.html

Yep ! Winnie Winston's book
Buddy Emmons E9 vocabulary
Jim Loessberg E9 courses

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 05 April 2006 at 08:25 AM.]

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Alan, see if this is useful.

Dan

[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 05 April 2006 at 08:39 AM.]

[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 05 April 2006 at 08:45 AM.]

[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 05 April 2006 at 08:46 AM.]

[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 05 April 2006 at 08:50 AM.]

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I don't know if this is the answer to the question, but...

One relationship of pedals to levers I explain to my students in this manner, not involving music theory per se, (though we do get into the theoretical part later).

The E-F lever will be used most often in combination with pedal A to make a major chord. Next in frequency will be the E-F lever by itself to create a dominant 7th chord. Next will be E-F by itself to create a diminished chord. Occasionally this lever will be used with both pedals A and B to create an augmented chord.

The E-Eb lever is used with equal frequency by itself to make either a minor, a 6th, or a major 7th chord, and with pedal B to make a dominant 7th chord. Also used with pedals A and B to make a dominant 9th chord. It is hardly ever used with pedal A only to create an chord, though it is used for single note melodic purposes.

Of course, there are exceptions, but these are the basic relationships between the pedals and the levers.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 April 2006 at 08:43 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I think we are gonna be giving a lot answers all saying pretty much the same thing.

This Instrument is gonna require that you use all 3 sides of your brain at the same time.

Playing out of the AB mode is basically simple, fun and sounds cool. Most quality musicians can get this down in a reasonable amount of time.

Adding Knee lever phrasing may take a bit longer as there are numerous possibilities.

Keep in mind your stock conventional grips.

10,8,6
8,6,5
6,5,4
5,4,3

Start slow..
apply one or two things at a time...
Lesson 1

open position, any fret = root
AB pedals brings you to the 4th

Slide down two frets release the A pedal and use the E lower lever..( lower 4 + 8 )
Here is the Dominant 7th variant of the 4 chord. As Herb mentions above,

Don't be afraid to rock in and out of the A pedal here...for the dominant 9th as mentioned above by Herb.Dom. 9th to Dom. 7th makes for GREAT Steel guitar phrasing...

Lesson 2
open position, any fret = root

slide up 3 frets using the A pedal and the E raise lever.
Here is the next degree of the Root chord.

Raising 10+5 with the A pedal
Raising 8+4 with the E lever

* extra..Release the A pedal and you have another 7th variant of the root chord.

Before you go any further, play these combinations with each of the different conventional grips. Put them in your auto pilot zone.

Take your brain and teach it where these 3 root psoitions are. Open, AF and AB. Use them interactivly. This should get burned into auto pilot before you proceed.

Really listen to the different sounds of the grips. They are all going to be different triads of the same chords, but not all usefull in phrasing the melody at hand.This is where you, the musician gets to choose what sounds pleasing and ..uh..what may not sound pleasing...

Now go back and play She thinks I still Care.

Substitute some of the new positions you have learned with some of the original phrases you played.

Go slow..

no charge

------------------
------------------
TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 April 2006 at 10:43 AM.]

Alan Sim · From: Lancashire, U.K.

Fred is correct,I do not have access to a teacher,or indeed anyone I could call to ask the most basic question.

Learning on ones own can be a lonely and frustrating process,and i have posted a couple of songs in an attempt to find out if what I am doing is right.The feedback I have had would indicate that I am on the right track.

My approach to learning a song is to find out what the chord sequence is,find out where the chords are on the neck using the Mel Bay chord chart,then try to put this into practise.

If there is a better/alternative way,tell me.

Ben is on the right track to what I want to know,thanks Ben,as I said previously,maybe I just asked the wrong question.

Thanks

Alan

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ben, you said...

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

never mind..

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 April 2006 at 10:40 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

It's three frets up. The same as if you told someone to go 3 frets everytime you want to repeat a diminished chord.

------------------
[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Besides Winnie's book, I had another one that I liked real well and found real useful, If I remember right it was De Witt Scotts Antholigy of pedal steel. I know I wore it out! lol..

------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

"Ben, you said...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A and F(left knee left) will give you the major chord four frets up from the root.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That should be three frets up. (We don't want to confuse anyone! )
"

Thanks Donny!. I knew i would screw that up without my guitar in front of me...still a complete newb here.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic