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Topic: Strings settling in |
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 10:54 am |
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I put new strings on my Excel uni 12 recently and talked about it in the context of high G# on a long scale guitar.
But this is about strings in general. I only play the Excel once a week and it's a week since I restrung it. When I got it out today all the plain strings had dropped several cents just sitting in the case.
Steel wire is a more complicated substance than I thought! I imagine this is normal but that doesn't mean I understand it 
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 12:13 pm
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How long did you play it after you changed the strings? It could take 10-15 minutes before the strings settle in completely. Did you push down on the strings after you changed them?
"Several cents" need not be a cause for alarm. A change in room temperature or just the heat of your hands can cause similar effects on any guitar. Don't worry unless it's excessive. Tuning goes up and down, but you should only be concerned if it's easily audible and affects your playing. If the first thing you do every time you sit down at the guitar is turn on the tuner and look for a problem, you'll nearly always find one.
The moral of the story: Always play a little before you look at your tuner.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 12:34 pm
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What I didn't make clear was that after I changed the strings I went out to a jam session and played for three solid hours, at the end of which it appeared to be still in tune (although I didn't put a meter on it).
With hindsight I realise that it could actually have gone down a bit then, and not since.
I'll report back next week.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 1:00 pm
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Compared to other Keyless steels, I am not as big of a fan of the way the string wraps around the post and then is locked in place with a screw that doesn't touch the string itself, on my Excel Steel.
It definitely takes strings longer to settle-in than on my Sierra, for example, which locks the string down hard with just half of one wrap around the post. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 2:37 pm
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What prompted me to start this was not considerations of guitar design or environment, but wondering whether a steel wire under constant tension might get bored and decide to sag a bit just to get attention.
Perhaps one of our metallurgists will chime in - I know you're out there.
Pete, this is the first time I've changed the strings and I agree that the anchoring mechanism is quaint, although it's easy once you get the hang of it, and it looks neat - maybe that's the object.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 7:23 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| What prompted me to start this was not considerations of guitar design or environment, but wondering whether a steel wire under constant tension might get bored and decide to sag a bit just to get attention. |
Not much, from my practical experience. Pianos keep the same strings for many decades, and many (including my own) go many years without being tuned. Still, they stay in remarkably good tune. And considering most of the strings are unison-tuned, it's even more remarkable. Of course, instruments based on wood platforms can have more issues than those based on heavy cast iron.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 2:36 am
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I was thinking about the early stages post-installation.
Apparently Twitter is proposing a self-erasing platform for fleeting thoughts - maybe I'd do better on there.
A cast iron pedal steel would hold its tuning very well, I imagine. I can't imagine why it's never caught on 
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 5:06 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| A cast iron pedal steel would hold its tuning very well, I imagine. I can't imagine why it's never caught on |
You mean that's NOT what they're made of?? Hmmm....
--Al Evans
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2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 7:17 am
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Who changes strings? 
Erv |
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John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 3:04 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Did you push down on the strings after you changed them? |
Do NOT push them down, pull them up instead ! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 4:15 pm
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Interesting difference.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mike Schwartzman
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 4:45 pm
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Remember a bass manufacturer that put metal necks on electric bass models? I think it was Kramer. Nice instruments, but lots of people remarked about how sensitive they were to temperature changes.
Donny talked about temperature changes above, and I think that is a major factor. A steel string connected to a metal keyhead on one end a metal changer on the other end with the metal mechanics underneath, all expanding and contracting with various room and outdoor traveling temperatures make for changes + or -. If I take a PSG downstairs to the basement where the room temp is 10- 15 degrees cooler the strings will go slightly sharp. Never fails. I'm definitely not a metallurgist, but like you, I like to play in tune.
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 10:37 pm
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A cast iron pedal steel would hold its tuning very well, I imagine. I can't imagine why it's never caught on [/quote]
I have posted about a steel guitar made with a Cast Iron frame, Here on the forum, On posts about cabinet drop. How it would be sitting on stage by the piano.
Cast Iron weighs 491 lb./ 222.714 Kg. per cubic foot. 4.551 OZ, per cubic inch. A cabinet the size of a D10 steel 1" inch thick cast iron would weigh in at about 235 lb./ 106.4 Kg.
At my age Harmonicas here I come. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 12 Mar 2020 4:02 am
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I think steel varies quite a bit in content and processing between different manufacturers and different lines by a single manufacturer.
But I unfailingly notice after changing strings that no matter how much you play them and re-tune them it takes several days to a week for the pitch to become stable. There is a certain elasticity to new strings that gradually gets reduced. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2020 7:15 am
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John,
I'm with you.
I always give new strings a tug while I'm getting them in tune. 
Erv |
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Jerry Horch
From:
Alva, Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2020 3:27 pm Strings
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I believe after a new set has settled in temperature change is it.I pull em 'up'get em to pitch,play a little...repeat,until I dont notice any pitch change on my tuner... cause I'm tuning deaf...Put her to bed ,check and tune in a hour or two or the next day....and it stays...my Franklin stays in amazing tune...in consistant temperature..and honey...rings like a bell...have never had to turn a tuning nut more than a fraction of a turn for pulls...Thanks Mr.Paul Sr. !!!
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Mar 2020 4:54 pm
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
| There is a certain elasticity to new strings that gradually gets reduced. |
That's the kind of feeling I was trying to express, as if there is a time element during which things stabilise.
If the string has slackened while unattended (temperature being constant) then some of its potential energy must have been dissipated in the crystal structure of the alloy. Might this be a form of work-hardening?
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Horch
From:
Alva, Florida, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 11:18 am
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Uuhh,yeah I guess...
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Franklin D10 /Walker Sterio Steel JBL's /DigiTech Quad4/ Korg Toneworks/ Dobro DM 1000 / Santa Cruz Guitar VA |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 11:22 am
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Temperature change seems to be the only thing that affects my tuning after I've played an hour or two on a new set.
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 12:18 pm
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My experience is that if a guitar (either steel or standard) is properly set up and free of friction that hangs up the strings at the bridge or nut, then if I carefully stretch the strings sufficiently, it stays in tune pretty well without waiting for it to "settle in".
I think it's fairly common to underestimate how many times each string needs to be stretched before getting essentially all the slack out of them. I generally pull up on the strings initially. Note that it is very easy to break strings like this, especially the 3rd string G# on E9 pedal steel or the high G string on a 12-string Spanish guitar. So I try to replace a small number of extreme pulls with repeatedly pulling up moderately, and do this until pitch doesn't change at all, then give it a few more light tugs. Once things seem pretty well in place, I push down at both the bridge and nut ends to help seat the string at each end. Then I play the guitar for several minutes, hitting each pedal and lever a severak times.
At each step of this stretch/play exercise, I check the tuning and re-tune. For a standard guitar, this just takes a few minutes; for pedal steel, it takes quite a bit longer - I assume this is not only because of the extra strings, but because of the more complex mechanism and the need to stretch/check/tune all the pedals and levers also.
I'm not willing to wait days or weeks to let "nature take its course" to pull the slack out of strings. If I have an important gig, I change strings as close as possible before the gig so I'm confident that they sound good and have the lowest probability of breaking possible.
| Quote: |
| When I got it out today all the plain strings had dropped several cents just sitting in the case. |
If your Excel is keyless, are you sure you're clamping the plain strings tight enough? They would be the ones that would tend to slip more - I've had this happen on Floyd Rose equipped guitars. On the other hand, with a keyed guitar, I notice that when it's just the plain strings that drop pitch, it almost always means I haven't pulled all the slack out of the strings. I believe that, relative to the wound strings, the plains tend to slip more on the tuning post and the knot at the ball end also tends to slip more.
BTW, I don't use any knots at the tuning post of a keyed guitar. I use as many winds as I can without overlapping windings on top of other windings, while still giving a straight-as-possible string pull to the nut slot. More windings => more friction holding the string to the post and less long-haul string slippage. But that also means more time to pull the slack out of more windings.
As b0b states, temperature (and in my experience, humidity) changes can cause changes in tuning. For me, that might mean going sharp or flat, depending on the guitar and what's going on with the environment. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 12:32 pm
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I may have been less patient than Dave with ironing out the slack. Also, the locking screws that anchor the tuning posts weren't as tight as they might have been. I'm wary of over-tightening things generally, but I guess these need to be rock-solid.
I no longer believe that I have discovered an obscure property of ferrous metals. It seems to be more about what happens at the posts and the ball end wraps.
My Williams is next up for a restring, so I shall follow all advice. Thank you!
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2020 8:26 pm
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A steel guitar is an instrument all its own. The wood and metal can affect tuning with temperature.
The strings with no raise or lower usually settle in quick. The strings that raise takes a little more time and movement. And the 4th and 8th strings act different because they raise and lower.
I change strings on Monday and playing at home settles the strings for gigging Friday and Saturday night. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Mar 2020 2:50 am
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So as promised I restrung my Williams too. The string clamping is much simpler than the Excel, and I gave everything a good mashing before I left it overnight.
The next day everything had dropped very slightly, but not audibly - except for the 3rd string which was audible.
On playing some more I found that it was the changes that required attention. This may be because on the Williams the tuning nuts don't act directly on the fingers but have quite long spacers. Maybe destringing unsettled these.
I'm now definitely more inclined to do as Bobby D. and leave a few days in between rather than changing right before the gig like Dave.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2020 6:00 am
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I despise changing PSG strings. They are aggravating to change. Temperamental about tuning for a while, and I think they sound "jingly" until they have been played for few hours.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Mar 2020 9:35 am
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I have yet to find a way of making a string change enjoyable, and I don't do the kind of work that demands new strings for every gig.
But the fact is that they don't last for ever and the busiest and least robust ones (3,4,5) get tired eventually. They either start to sound tinny, or sound out of tune whichever way you turn the key.
On the guitar I play once a week they've lasted two years. The one I practice on should therefore last a sixth as long, say four months - although I shall stretch it to six if it remains symptom-free.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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