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Topic: Creating an instrumental break based on the melody |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2020 5:38 pm |
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A music project that I am a part of is causing me to take a big step forward in my steel guitar playing. I am playing as a duo with singer-songwriter who plays acoustic guitar. His songs are excellent and he is smooth to work with. He is new to the world of steel guitar, so he is open-minded too. His style is kind of like Gordon Lightfoot. Our immediate goal is to perform a small set of songs at an open mic this spring.
For one of his songs, he wants to insert an instrumental break consisting of a full verse and refrain. He wants to hang back and strum the chords while I make the steel guitar shine. The thing that's causing me to have to rise to the occasion is that he wants the solo to be based on the melody.
My default way to take a solo is to dress up, articulate, and do variations of the pads and fills I play elsewhere in the song. I've also soloed a melody with a full band. What makes this new and difficult for me is that the only other instrument is an acoustic guitar. He'll be percussively strumming full chords with hammer-ons, pull-offs.
Playing the melody in a straight-up style will be too boring, especially if I do it with single notes. Doing it that way will also leave a big gap in the song where my background accompaniment would otherwise be. Converting each note of the melody into a diad or triad would also be ineffective, I think. The end result will have to be somewhere in the middle.
Part of me wants to start composing the solo by learning to play the melody verbatim and then practice it over and over again while my steel guitar instincts take over to season it to taste. My better musical instincts tell me to find the melody within the pads and fills I've already been playing in the song and find ways to emphasize those notes. Either way, it's going to take a ton of taste and there's no guaranty of a satisfactory result.
Is there any methodology to taking on a task like this? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Mar 2020 11:56 pm
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I wouldn't go so far as to call it a methodology, but what I've done in this situation is to play the melody in an idiomatic mixture of 2- and 3-part harmony (because the audience don't think it's boring - played on steel guitar it's novel) and vary the rhythmic feel (i.e. jazz it up a bit).
This worked with a guy doing Jason Isbell and Mark Knopfler numbers.
I've heard it stated that you should be able to play the melody even if you don't plan to. I suppose this is to give you a handle on the song so you can interact better with the singer.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 2:19 am
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interesting topic.
First we have to ask ourselves the most important question:
Are we playing Steel guitar on the song or are we playing the SONG on Steel guitar ? They are not the same thing. They are not mutually exclusive.
This topic comes up all the time on Guitar forums
Should I play melody or something other than the melody ? OR should I play something based on the melody ?
The answer is "what works for the song " , not the player. Melody is not boring, it may very well be boring for a very seasoned player to play a simple melody line as a solo or fill, but is it boring to listeners ? Who can say.
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Ian above says
"I've heard it stated that you should be able to play the melody even if you don't plan to. I suppose this is to give you a handle on the song so you can interact better with the singer"
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I'll add three words to the end " Or The Song "
One thing is for certain, if we CAN't play the melody we are probably in trouble anyway because if we can't play the melody we can't actually play the song.
I think too many times, we as Steel players or any instrument for that matter , look beyond something very simple and miss the mark. We may be very capable of excellent exiting things even when the song calls for nothing more than 1 note !
I played a gig on Guitar a few nights ago , I recorded it, I record most gigs . I thought at the time I was playing well, good stuff..blah blah blah. Thats not what the recording revealed ! Sure, I did play well but on some songs TOO WELL ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Franklin
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 4:20 am
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Hi Curt,
If you understand diatonic harmonies, the chord structures, and learn to play the intervals you can sing....That's it for any gig, anywhere! Basic music theory which is simply the study of intervals and major scale diatonic's will always cover the bases for any gig, anywhere. Those are the rules for playing music and sounding correct and those rules have never changed over centuries. Basic theory knowledge is the musicians cornerstone..
What's interesting to me is it takes about 3 weeks to learn this stuff which can be learned away from the guitar, yet it's puzzling why so many spend decades avoiding learning the basics of music. Its like they want to read what is in a book, yet they choose not to learn how to sound out the letters on a page. That's a baffling quagmire.
Paul |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 5:12 am
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| Franklin wrote: |
Hi Curt,
If you understand diatonic harmonies, the chord structures, and learn to play the intervals you can sing....That's it for any gig, anywhere! Basic music theory which is simply the study of intervals and major scale diatonic's will always cover the bases for any gig, anywhere. Those are the rules for playing music and sounding correct and those rules have never changed over centuries. Basic theory knowledge is the musicians cornerstone..
What's interesting to me is it takes about 3 weeks to learn this stuff which can be learned away from the guitar, yet it's puzzling why so many spend decades avoiding learning the basics of music. Its like they want to read what is in a book, yet they choose not to learn how to sound out the letters on a page. That's a baffling quagmire.
Paul |
That's true for me to! I've been learning music theory on an as-needed basis... and even then only reluctantly.
For the project I have in front of me now, it's not the music theory so much as being tasteful and efficient. Because the only other instrument is the acoustic guitar and because the steel guitar already fills a big space in the song pre-instrumental break, my concern is that if I simply switch the steel guitar's role to that of the vocalist in doing the melody, that I'll leave the role I was filling vacant. In essence, I feel like I need to compose the solo so that it covers both bases at the same time. |
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Franklin
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 5:40 am
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Curt, Not to be hard on you. And I promise I am not being mean spirited with this answer because I believe "You" are at a flipping the switch moment...Your reply sounds like an excuse for not learning what you truly know needs to be learned today....The "Put it off until tomorrow" mindset may be why the reluctance towards learning the basics still exists.
The resolve to your scenario is still found in basic music theory. Once the intervals for creating the chords are understood, Using arpeggios to play those chords while grabbing intervals of the melody is how to keep up the energy..(which is a keyboard way of approaching solo gigs) This approach will keep the duos sound full and I would say its the best way to accomplish solos in those songs for your singer.
Without that basic knowledge ....Each playing situation will always create problems to overcome.
In music arpeggios give rhythm movement. Playing as many of the intervals as legato as possible gives both fullness and rhythmic groove....PSG can easily do a piano styled gig.
Curt, I really believe you can learn this stuff....Please understand its the advantage some call a natural gift.....Actually its devoted chair time getting all of the cornerstones in place....You will love where you can go once this stuff is internalized.
Paul |
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Norman Evans
From:
Tennessee
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 6:05 am
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to many listeners the steel guitar is most beautiful when it flows from note to note or chord to chord, so a simple melody that mimics a vocal may be all that it needs, being able to slide from one note to another makes it more human. Only a few other instruments can do this and none as beautifully as the steel guitar.
As far as the arrangement losing your backing parts when you solo, may not be a problem to anyone but your ears... because they will be focused on your solo playing now and not the vocals with your fills.
This being said, a few licks and chords in between the main melody parts will certainly hold the audiences interest.
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYG9cvwCPKuXpGofziPNieA/feed?activity_view=3 |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 6:29 am
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| Dom Franco wrote: |
| As far as the arrangement losing your backing parts when you solo, may not be a problem to anyone but your ears... because they will be focused on your solo playing now and not the vocals with your fills.. |
You're probably right... in fact you almost certainly are. I'm just a hobbyist with pedal steel, so I'm comfortable with the fact that I am pretty much always the only person who cares about the kind of music decisions that we stress out over. I would still like to do the solo in a way that satisfies my tastes in addition to getting the job done for the song.
The role that my backing parts fill elsewhere in the song is to supply hooks and to accentuate the building and resolving of tension. In some ways, I guess you could say that the steel guitar creates a groove. I feel that after hearing those elements in the first two verses and refrain, that the ear will be expecting to hear them during the instrumental break as well. |
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Jack Aldrich
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 11:00 am
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I am very fortunate to play jazz piano in addition to steel. I went through all 4 volumes of John Mehegan's jazz piano books. Then, I also took lessons in jazz theory from Dick Grove and had a friendship with Horace Silver. This undoubtedly affected how I play steel, both pedal and non=pedal. All of this learning came just before or during my introduction to pedal steel. As has been noted elsewhere on this thread, when you start playing, you have to put all that aside and just play!
_________________
Jack Aldrich
Carter & ShoBud D10's
D8 & T8 Stringmaster
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3 Resonator guitars
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Canopus D8 |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 6:05 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| The role that my backing parts fill elsewhere in the song is to supply hooks and to accentuate the building and resolving of tension. In some ways, I guess you could say that the steel guitar creates a groove. I feel that after hearing those elements in the first two verses and refrain, that the ear will be expecting to hear them during the instrumental break as well. |
Although you can never go wrong with playing the melody only, if you already created memorable and nice fills and think people will want to hear more of those in the solo section, you can just play those same fills/hooks but vary them a little: Maybe play in a higher register, add little embellishments, or just play them louder. Another option is to play the melody but add an effect such as distortion or tremolo. The effect will make the solo section stand out more from your other fills.
Great topic. It would be cool if you'd be willing to share with us a recording of whatever you come up with. |
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Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2020 8:14 pm Paul Can Really Cook.
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| I had not seen that U-Tube of Paul and Vince. Thanks Paul, for giving us all something to shoot for. Really Great playin’. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 4:03 am
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| ...because the steel guitar already fills a big space in the song pre-instrumental break, my concern is that if I simply switch the steel guitar's role to that of the vocalist in doing the melody, that I'll leave the role I was filling vacant. In essence, I feel like I need to compose the solo so that it covers both bases at the same time. |
I think one of the most powerful aspects of music, is when things change up dramatically from verse to chorus, chorus to solo, whatever. That is what I love about country music - you get a fiddle backing the singer in the first verse, then it drops out and gets replaced by the steel in verse 2, etc.
And in a different sort of way, you get that elsewhere. I think, for example, of a band like Van Halen with only one guitarist. There's a sort of "emptiness" that happens when EVH takes a guitar solo because there's no longer a rhythm guitar part. But, that's what makes it great. It focuses the attention even more on the guitar.
Anyway, all that is to say, that you will be fine, and the change up to the arrangement for the solo section will likely be a refreshing change for the audience. Embrace it! |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 4:45 am
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Go ahead and play simple. Focus on phrasing, tone and articulation. A simple melody played with beauty is way more powerful than you think.
Also do what Paul says and learn your theory / intervals and start looking ways to play and harmonize that same melody on different places on the neck.
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Bob |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 5:32 am
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Screw this. My mistake sharing my thoughts. Deleted.
Last edited by Jon Light on 10 Mar 2020 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 6:01 am
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
| Great topic. It would be cool if you'd be willing to share with us a recording of whatever you come up with. |
Absolutely. I am sure of our girlfriends will be recording us with at least a smartphone when we perform it.
From the sounds of this thread, doing anything more with the solo than a stylized melody is either a bad idea or biting off more than I can chew. I'm a stubborn person, so what that tells me is that when putting together the solo, I should start as simply as possible with the bare melody... and then if I get a good idea for incorporating the groove, I can cautiously and suspiciously try to accommodate it.
I still don't understand why people on this forum are so willing to sacrifice the groove of the song. That's the part of the song that makes you get lost in it and never want it to end. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 6:10 am
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
I still don't understand why people on this forum are so willing to sacrifice the groove of the song. That's the part of the song that makes you get lost in it and never want it to end. |
You are presenting a problem you have, a lot of people are taking the time sharing their ideas about it, and you have found the need to tell everybody what is wrong with them.
Sorry I got involved. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 7:00 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
I still don't understand why people on this forum are so willing to sacrifice the groove of the song. That's the part of the song that makes you get lost in it and never want it to end. |
You are presenting a problem you have, a lot of people are taking the time sharing their ideas about it, and you have found the need to tell everybody what is wrong with them.
Sorry I got involved. |
Oh come on.  I asked a question and the answers took it in a different direction and left me with a big part of my original question unanswered. |
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Marc Muller
From:
Neptune,NJ USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 7:21 am My 2 cents....
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Something I (force myself) to do and something I teach. Check out how many melodies, simple and complex, you can sing easily, maybe based on familiarity, but don't at all fit into the nice little scale pattern boxes we're all comfy with on our instruments. Then, force yourself out of the box and learn. Amazing how it broadens your fret board! 2 examples - Wichita Lineman. One of your more unique and beautiful melodies you can probably sing naturally all day long. Then try and play it. Took me forever to be comfortable playing. Another, I Will Beatles. "Still I wait a lonely lifetime, if you want me to I will". Same thing, sing like nothing. On your instrument it jumps intervals all over the place.
Funny, I changed modes on those little melody bits, sped them up and are now in my more jazz flavored library of licks. Sing it 1st, then play it. Endless possibilities to widen your playing. |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 7:47 am
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Perhaps we are not understanding the problem you are really having?
1. "Groove" is a term in modern music that is usually supplied by the Bass and drums and perhaps guitar or piano.
2. Seldom if ever has a steel guitar been asked to keep the "Groove" because it requires a constant beat, rhythm, chord structure or repeating riff... that holds the song together. And the Steel guitar is not really a strumming, percussive or rhythm instrument.
3. In a duo the standard guitarist should be creating the groove, and the steel guitar should be playing fills, licks, intros and endings etc. But maybe this is not what is happening in your case Perhaps the real problem is due to the way the other guitarist is playing, and you are indeed carrying the rhythm...
4. It would be helpful for us to hear a sample recording of you guys playing, maybe your idea of "groove" would make more sense to us.
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYG9cvwCPKuXpGofziPNieA/feed?activity_view=3 |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 8:00 am
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| Dom Franco wrote: |
Perhaps we are not understanding the problem you are really having?
1. "Groove" is a term in modern music that is usually supplied by the Bass and drums and perhaps guitar or piano.
2. Seldom if ever has a steel guitar been asked to keep the "Groove" because it requires a constant beat, rhythm, chord structure or repeating riff... that holds the song together. And the Steel guitar is not really a strumming, percussive or rhythm instrument.
3. In a duo the standard guitarist should be creating the groove, and the steel guitar should be playing fills, licks, intros and endings etc. But maybe this is not what is happening in your case Perhaps the real problem is due to the way the other guitarist is playing, and you are indeed carrying the rhythm...
4. It would be helpful for us to hear a sample recording of you guys playing, maybe your idea of "groove" would make more sense to us. |
You're nailing it. I'm abusing the word 'groove' because what I really mean is the backing parts I play that boost the song's movement, flow, and hooks. The voice is a baritone who is singing within a limited range and the guitar does the chording (with some great chord flavorings), but doesn't add additional elements to the song aside from a little bit of percussiveness. By itself it is nice song, but it doesn't reach out and grab you as much as it could. This is the issue with a lot of singer-songwriter songs containing only a guitar and a voice... and the reason he is so interested in working with steel guitar. When I try hard to think of an artist to compare it to, Gordon Lightfoot is the closest I can think of.
We plan to practice again this weekend and have me show him what I have so far for the instrumental break. Maybe I can record us on my phone to share for you. I'm not sure how he feels about sharing his works in progress, so no promises. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 8:54 am
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Another way of putting it is that when Curt's partner is singing,there are two instruments backing him; when Curt's playing a solo,there's only one backing instrument,and he has to fill more space.IMO(and YMMV)the optimum way to do that where there's no rhythm section is to fatten up the melody.The example that comes to mind is BE's steel solo on Judy Collins' cover of "someday Soon"....And an example of getting too barebones about it is James Burton's solo immediately following Buddy's on the same tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIgnHPqp0Dk |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 8:59 am Time
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You seem to be lucky in that you have some time to work on it. In the studios in Texas, 70's, they were great...'ok guys, let's give the steel player some time to work out a solo....Jeff, you got 10 minutes.
I think to figure out what you're gonna do, just start playing the melody, take some time and something will click and you'll be there. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 9:08 am
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Another way of putting it is that when Curt's partner is singing,there are two instruments backing him; when Curt's playing a solo,there's only one backing instrument,and he has to fill more space.IMO(and YMMV)the optimum way to do that where there's no rhythm section is to fatten up the melody.The example that comes to mind is BE's steel solo on Judy Collins' cover of "someday Soon"....And an example of getting too barebones about it is James Burton's solo immediately following Buddy's on the same tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIgnHPqp0Dk |
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