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Topic: Super Simplified Chord Substitutions |
Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 3:06 pm |
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I recently learned about very simplified chord substitutions (Thanks, Jeff Newman!)
You can play ALL chords in the major scale with just these three chords: 1,4,5.
For example for the major scale chords 1,2m,3m,4,5,6m,7dim ---->substitute 1,5dom7th,1,4,5,4,5.
That's it. You don't even have to think about minor or diminished chords (Unless you want to.)
It seemed too easy to be true, but I tried these substitutions along to some backing tracks and they fit.
Any of you guys use this simplified method of substituting chords?
Not that it replaces knowing all the normal chords, but it's probably useful to know this.
Important Update:
CAUTION: The above chord substitutions work best for simplified 2 note versions of chords and may result in WRONG notes if used with full chords. Use at your own risk.
Last edited by Jacek Jakubek on 21 Feb 2020 5:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 19 Feb 2020 12:24 am
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Chord substitution or superimposing a triad to yield harmonic structure for some other chord is a great concept to use and it will free up lots of creative possibilities. In the beginning, in order to train your ears to hear a C major triad as an Am7 it is important that you use the C triad in its Root position closed form, like this, Root 3rd 5th.
Since those same notes will form the b3 5th and b7th of an Am7.
If you use some inversion or open voiced version of the C chord chances are youre not going to hear it as easily as Am7 but instead maybe just hear a C voicing with an A bass note.
Once one starts to be able recognize 3rds 5ths 7ths 9ths 11ths and 13th in the harmonic structure then C/A (a C triad with an A bassnote) vs Am7 (the notes A C E G) will sound like two different chords even tho they contain the exact same notes. Hearing that top note G as either a 5th(C triad) or a b7th(Am7) makes big difference.
I spent many wasted hours trying to understand and hear chord substitutions correctly just because I overlooked the importance of harmonic ladder (Root 3rds 5ths 7ths 9ths 11ths and 13ths) Start with the Root 3rd 5th type triad and bump it up in the structure so you can hear b3rd 5th b7th with the same notes.
When you can hear this clearly then it is ok to shuffle around the notes in inversions and such.
Knowing these four triads will let you play any chord
Root b3rd b5th (diminished)
Root b3rd 5th (minor)
Root 3rd 5th (Major)
Root 3rd #5th (Augmented)
as those can be superimposed or substituted for exactly whats needed.
It is definitly useful and sometimes it can be much more easily to see how the melody goes if one throws away some notes here and there by reducing things down to 3 voices only.
B.Erlandsen |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Feb 2020 11:55 am
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The examples Jacek gives are not substitutions to my mind, just simplifications. It is true that three chords have always gone a long way, but a sub is a chord that has the same harmonic function as the original, so I is not a sub for iii, just a different chord that's easier to find.
iii for Imaj7 is a valid sub.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2020 10:39 am
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, Bengt. I was aware of the triads, it's just that they're hard to identify quickly on the steel for me. So when you need to find a chord quickly, the simplifications will work.
Ian, thanks for the clarification. What I meant was when the band is playing a iii chord and you play a I chord, your I chord will sound like a iii. I thought that is a substitution, but if it's a simplification, I'm OK with that. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Feb 2020 11:27 am
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Say you are in the key of C, where iii is Em.
Em contains E G B and C contains C E G, so there is a clash between the C and B - that is my concern.
Of course if you're only playing the E and G, no problem and Jeff Newman didn't like three note chords anyway.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2020 12:50 pm
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I did something similar to Jacek’s concept a few years ago when I was learning “All The Things You Areâ€. The chords are predominantly minor. Thinking of them all as their relative majors turned it into a 3 chord song in 4 keys. Maybe not exactly what a jazz player would do with the tune, but I am a jazz dabbler, not a player.
What I did was a simplification. Chord substitution isn’t about majors and their relative minors. I for iii is a substitution, as is V for ii and IV for vi. Those dissonant half step intervals are much more jazz-like than what I did. Interestingly enough, when you reverse those substitutions (play iii over I, vi over IV, and ii over V7), you get some very lovely diatonic sounds.
My music theory hero ‘splains it all so well:
https://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/harmony/ChordSubstitution_Parts_1-2.pdf |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Feb 2020 5:08 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
Em contains E G B and C contains C E G, so there is a clash between the C and B - that is my concern.
Of course if you're only playing the E and G, no problem and Jeff Newman didn't like three note chords anyway |
Ian, now I see what you were getting at. Thanks for clarifying this because it is VERY relevant. Yes, I was only using the 2-note versions of the chords like Jeff suggested to use, and now I see that substituting the full 3 note chords using this method may not work. I'm now reluctant to use these substitutions and probably would not have started this topic if I'd have known this information. At the very least this topic needs a disclaimer. Something like CAUTION: The above chord substitutions work best for simplified 2 note versions of chords and may result in WRONG notes if used with full chords. Use at your own risk.
Fred and Greg, I have printed your theory instructions for future reference. I'm especially intrigued by the tri-tone stuff Greg posted. From what I remember, tri-tones are the evil-sounding intervals/chords as used in the main riff in the song "Black Sabbath" by the band Black Sabbath. Seeing that this could be used for something other than evil-sounding heavy metal music is interesting. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2020 7:52 am
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| Tritone substitution is not an easy or simple concept. Understanding the intervals of a tritone chord as extensions of an altered dom7 and how it is used in ii-V-I is one of the keys to understanding jazz harmony. It is very important to have a solid grasp of basic harmony and chord extensions long before venturing into tritone territory. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Feb 2020 8:02 am
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It's not as abstruse as you make out, Fred.
C7b5 and F#7b5 contain the same notes.
Er, that's it.
19th c. classical composers spotted that long before jazz arrived.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2020 8:54 am
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TriTone is simple and easy as charted out in my post. Got a C chord? Substitute an F#7th chord:
So a C - F sequence becomes C - F#7 - F. Willie Nelson uses that all the time!
You hear simple tri-tone substitutions all day long at steel conventions:
C A D G C becomes C D#7 D7 C#7 C6
It works with the chord scales as well with 7th, 9th, 13th and 6th chords.
YOu cna hear these applied to a simple C A D G C chord sequence here:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/E9th%20Tri-Tone%20Improv/TriTone.wma
The tab is at the link I posted above. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2020 8:59 am
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Okay. C7b5 = F#7b5. Yes, it’s been around a long time. Yes, simple for players with a solid grip on harmonic theory. Should it be part of Harmony 101? I don’t think so. Especially when #9, b9, 13, in various combinations with the tritone are thrown in to the soup, as they often are. Learning the basic concepts of chord substitution comes first.
As an added bonus, if you have the theoretical background to think of tritone chord substitutions as extensions of the root dom7, you don’t even have to think of it as a chord separate from the root. C7#9b5 is still a C7 at its core, not an altered F#7. Different strokes. I just have a preference for thinking in diatonic terms when possible.
This is getting pretty far removed from Jacek’s concept in his OP. Sorry for my contribution to the side trip, but that’s where the conversation went and don’t we love to chatter!
So I will attempt to address the OP directly.
My ideas for diatonic chord scale simplification, applying the Jeff Newman concept of making everything a 1, 4, or 5.
Chords............1____2m____3m____4____5____6m____7ø
Substitutions....1_____4_____5_____4____5_____1_____5 |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 21 Feb 2020 11:59 am
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To Fred Treece, brilliant layout showing the chords and substitutions in regards to the Jeff Newman concept.
Makes it so easy to see why it actually works.
4 is the extension of 2m
5 is the extension of 3m
1 is the extension of 6m
7ø is the extension of 5
B.Erlandsen |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Feb 2020 4:22 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
My ideas for diatonic chord scale simplification, applying the Jeff Newman concept of making everything a 1, 4, or 5.
Chords............1____2m____3m____4____5____6m____7ø
Substitutions....1_____4_____5_____4____5_____1_____5 |
Good stuff. Will have to remember that. Looks easy enough to remember. |
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Travis Toy
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2020 6:12 pm Re: Super Simplified Chord Substitutions
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
I recently learned about very simplified chord substitutions (Thanks, Jeff Newman!)
You can play ALL chords in the major scale with just these three chords: 1,4,5.
For example for the major scale chords 1,2m,3m,4,5,6m,7dim ---->substitute 1,5dom7th,1,4,5,4,5.
That's it. You don't even have to think about minor or diminished chords (Unless you want to.)
It seemed too easy to be true, but I tried these substitutions along to some backing tracks and they fit.
Any of you guys use this simplified method of substituting chords?
Not that it replaces knowing all the normal chords, but it's probably useful to know this.
Important Update:
CAUTION: The above chord substitutions work best for simplified 2 note versions of chords and may result in WRONG notes if used with full chords. Use at your own risk. |
As others have already pointed out, there are some problems with what you’ve got listed here. A correct version of what you’re trying to do would be...
1,2m,3m,4,5,6m,7dim = 1,4,5,4,5,1,5 (or 5dom7)
4 is the relative major of a 2m
5 is the relative major of a 3m
1 is the relative major of a 6m
5dom7 contains the same common tones as a 7dim.
If we’re in G, a 7dim triad has an F# (root), A (flatted 3rd), C (flatted 5th).
A 5dom7 chord (D7) would/could have an F# (3rd), A (5th), C (flat 7 or dominant 7).
-t
EDIT: Haha! I didn’t scroll up to see that others had already posted this exact thing. Looks like you’re good to go now.
_________________
www.travistoy.com
www.travistoytutorials.com
Last edited by Travis Toy on 24 Feb 2020 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Feb 2020 1:23 am
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Hey Travis - I do that too - no shame! 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 24 Feb 2020 4:37 am
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| Travis Toy wrote: |
1,2m,3m,4,5,6m,7dim = 1,4,5,4,5,1,5 (or 5dom7)
4 is the relative major of a 2m
5 is the relative major of a 3m
1 is the relative major of a 6m
5dom7 contains the same common tones as a 7dim.
If we’re in G, a 7dim triad has an F# (root), A (flatted 3rd), C (flatted 5th).
A 5dom7 chord (D7) would have an F# (3rd), A (5th), C (flat 7 or dominant 7). |
Thanks, Travis.
The extra clarification is helpful. I now see what Bengt meant in his post above by "2m is an extension of 4." He meant "4 is the relative major of 2m."
I'm trying to learn this stuff to recall it automatically without even thinking about it, so different ways of saying the same thing are useful...Sometimes one way of reading it will catch on better in the mind than another way. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2020 11:25 pm
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| No, Bengt did not mean 2m is an extension of 4, he said 4 is an extension of 2m. Maybe superimposed is a better word for it than “extendedâ€. An F chord (F-A-C) extended over Dm (D-F-A) adds the note C (b7) to the Dm chord, which makes it a Dm7 (D-F-A-C). This is how “substituting†a major chord for its relative minor works to simply a chord progression, like the one for All The Things You Are. |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Feb 2020 7:54 am
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Fred, you're right. I wrote what Bengt said backwards by mistake. Good reminder about the major, when substituted for minor, making it a minor7. I remember Jeff Newman mentioned that when talking about using these substitutions. I just kind of ignored the "7" part of the "minor7."
Now, all we need is one chord to be substituted for all chords, ever. That will be the ultimate simplification |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2020 8:02 am
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It's called rap
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 25 Feb 2020 8:35 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| It's called rap |
Rap is to music as an etch-a-sketch is to the Mona Lisa 
I've been watching this thread since it began waiting for the right time to jump in, thanks Ian
Anyway, it occurs to me if you're going to go through all the trouble of learning what relative major triad (or dyad) can be substituted for the minor of the harmonized scale, why not just learn the minors of the ii, iii, vi and the diminished of the vii? There are nearly as many minor triads to be found on the standard 10-8-6-5-4-3 grip as there are major triads. Unless I'm missing something, you'll be much more flexible to have those minors in your back pocket than trying to memorize how to replace them with a 2 note relative major dyad.
_________________
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Asa Brosius
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Posted 25 Feb 2020 10:23 am
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| -FYI- I was just over on the 'Rap Forum' - boy do they ever just hate that steel guitar over there. |
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Travis Toy
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2020 10:53 am
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| Asa Brosius wrote: |
| -FYI- I was just over on the 'Rap Forum' - boy do they ever just hate that steel guitar over there. |
Haha!!!
_________________
www.travistoy.com
www.travistoytutorials.com |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2020 12:06 pm
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
| [I've been watching this thread since it began waiting for the right time to jump in, thanks Ian |
There is no right time to jump into a music theory discussion, just as there is no right time for singing about football, or roller skating in a buffalo herd. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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