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Topic: Blue Grass/Steel |
John Kalament
From:
South Carolina
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 4:19 am |
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I have a chance to play with a Blue Grass band and just was wondering how much the Pedal Steel is used in this type of music. I know Ricky Skaggs is considered a Blue Grass singer on most of his material but I like the E9th country Intro's and fills but dont know how much I would be able to contribute to this band. Anyone know of any Blue Grass CD's out there that have Steel on them ?
Thanks,
John |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 4:49 am
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Any Osborne Brothers on MCA or Decca...the best way to get this stuff is a box set on Bear Family called"Osborne Brothers 1968-1974"...Hal Rugg and Weldon Myrick played some great stuff...also a CD on CMH called"Rocky Top to Muddy Bottom"also by the Osbornes...Buddy Emmons is on this one and he SMOKED IT!
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http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 5:29 am
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| "Country Swingin' Slide Guitar Picking" has Hounddog Jackson on Dobro and William "hot wire" Smith on steel. You might be able to pick up some hints on blending in from this cd. |
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John Kalament
From:
South Carolina
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 5:36 am
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Thanks Bill and Steve, I'll have to pick them up and listen.
John |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 6:10 am
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IMO Bluegrass is really an acoustic style. Electric bass has become accepted out of pure practicality, but other instruments aren't usually electric. You can play bluegrass songs on steel - but I don't see how steel really fits in a bluegrass band.
I'd compare it to adding drums - once drums are in the mix, it's not bluegrass - it's just a country or country-rock band playing bluegrass songs. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 6:14 am
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Q: How many bluegrass musicians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Five. One to change the bulb, and four to complain that it's electric. |
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Paul King
From:
Gainesville, Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 6:22 am
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| I always thought it would be fun to play with a bluegrass group. If for nothing else, speed. Most bluegrass tunes are up tempo and I personally do not feel that I get to play enough fast songs. I have found the majority of people I have played music with cannot play a fast song using single notes. I would suggest if the opportunity is there to jump on it. If it does not work out just chalk it up as experience and go on to something else. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 7:48 am
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| You might want to check out the stuff Doug Jernigan did with J.D. Crowe, when Keith Whitley was in the band. Jim and Jesse used steel on some stuff, too, back in the 60's, when "traditional" country was turning its back on bluegrass, and the 'grassers were doing all they could to survive. |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 8:24 am
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| You'll be playing along with a bluegrass band, as opposed to playing bluegrass. As mentioned above, Osborne Brothers and other classic bluegrass acts used PSG in the studio to broaden the appeal of their recordings. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 8:31 am
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Mike's joke is well taken, but it's still true that bluegrass is primarily banjo, mandolin, guitar, bass, fiddle and sometimes dobro. Bill Monroe, who essentialy "invented" bluegrass, also tried accordian and other instruments before settling on the classic setup (sans dobro - that came in to play in the Flatt & Scruggs band with Josh Graves...speaking of which, check the "family" board, he's seriously ill).
Many festivals would not allow electric bass until the late 70's. My bass player had to buy an upright, or we would not have been allowed to play most bluegrass venues, even on the progressive west coast, in '75-80. Now electric bass is generally accepted, but other electric instruments aren't as a rule.
It IS fun to play them along with bluegrass tunes, though. Really helps the chops. |
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John Ummel
From:
Arlington, WA.
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 9:14 am
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I like Mike's joke too.
For an electrified band w/drums, playing
Bluegrass STYLE music, I like J.D Crowe & the New South. |
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Steve Dodson
From:
Sparta, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 9:50 am
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| John, I would say go for it. As Steve Hinson and Stephen Gambrell have pointed to some good info to check out, to give you an ideal of what has and can be done in Bluegrass music with the Pedal Steel. The Last time I remember seeing the Osborne Brothers on the Opry,they where using an Electric Bass. So if you keep your volume level as to where it will blend with the rest of the group, I see no problem. Doug,Buddy, Hal,and Weldon have done more than proved it can be done. And as there have been many threads on expanding the Pedal Steel into different styles of music. I dont see why Bluegrass couldnt be one of them. Mike Perlowin, man that was a good joke. Never heard that one before. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 10:03 am
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I like the idea of steel in bluegrass---WHY NOT????? Doug Jernigan played Black Mountain Rag at the Dallas show, and ripped it up on side and down the other!! Sounded great!
(edited to correct the song title, thanx Sonny, you are correct.  )[This message was edited by James Morehead on 18 March 2006 at 04:40 PM.] |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 10:50 am
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It's funny you guys mention electric bass--Back in the early/mid 70's, electric bass was considered THE progressive instrument in bluegrass. Steve Bryant with Boone Creek, and then Crowe---I was playing upright at the time, and considered switching to electric, so people would take our band seriously, and not expect me to have blacked-out teeth and tell jokes---Never mind the limited range of a four-string electric, as compared to acoustic bass! And EVERY upright bass player that I know of was using a pickup and an old Ampeg amp, or else wedging a mike in the tailpiece, thus making it an ELECTRIC bass, right?
And as an aside, one of the premier electric bassists in bluegrass, John Cowan, has his old '62 Jazz bass for sale at Gruhn's---for TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!! |
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John Kalament
From:
South Carolina
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 1:04 pm
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Hey Guy's,
Thank's for all your imput. I really want to hear this band at one of their practice sessions. It might be all for fun but it never hurt's to get involved with other musicians electric or or not.
Thanks so much again,
John |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 1:51 pm
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| I think Doug was going to do OBS in Dallas but but someone before him had done it ,,,,so,,,he literally burned it down with Black Mountain Rag!!!!,,tell Doug PSG don't belong in a bluegrass band,,,,whoa,,,,!!!!! |
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Rick Jolley
From:
Colorado Springs
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 2:12 pm
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I've been playing electric lead guitar for over fifty years and most of the time I've had to deal with "acoustic nazis" -- who can't stand anyting electric. The BG jam at Poor Richards in Colorado Springs is an example -- I took an elec. bass down there because they had _no bass_. They were basically nasty, if not horrified. Guys pay $2000 for a flat top guitar -- just to play there -- and they don't want anything electric to compete with them. I almost bought a dobro, so I could play there, but I left town instead.
Anyway, when Emmy Lou put together the Hot Band, she got Ricky Skaggs to play mando and of course, it had to be electric in that gang. When he started his own band, it was an "electric Blue Grass Band" and it sounded
GREAT!!!! Bruce playing steel -- I guess so!!
Anyway, there WERE some great electric Blue Grass bands for a while -- and some BG bands now change their name and play some electric jazz & swing -- but BG is acoustic, PERIOD.
You'll notice that Ricky has abandoned Electric for Acoustic with his new band Kentuckky Thunder.
Get yourself a dobro -- there's certainly enuf challenge there, even if it's not PSG.
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Rick Jolley
(Rick Zahniser/Rickey Zahn)
Dekley S10 3/3, Session400LTD
http://belizenorth.com
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Steve Dodson
From:
Sparta, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 2:13 pm
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| Doug Jernigan would work a fiddle player and Banjo player to Death. That man can burn a Bluegrass Tune in the ground. As well as a lot of other stuff also. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 2:25 pm
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"tell Doug PSG don't belong in a bluegrass band"
Ok - it doesn't.
;-)
No that it's nt fun to play bluegrass tunes in an electric setting - I've done it for years. But a "bluegrass band" by definition is an acoustic string band. It's a particular type of sound, and when you add steel, or electric guitar, or keys, it's not a "bluegrass band". It's a "band playing bluegrass songs".
There's a gigantic difference. Mostly I think it's probably only noticed by bluegrass players - most people hear a banjo in ANYTHING and say - "oh, listen - a bluegrass band".
And oddly, bluegrass banjo as we know it wasn't even part of the first bluegrass bands. Bill Monroe always thought fiddle was the critical part, along with his mandolin. And NO guitar leads - guitar was a backup-only instrument. he wildest guitar part in early bluegrass was Lester Flatt's "G" run. It was revolutionary. There were other, but it really was Doc Watson and Clarence White who brought guitar flatpicking to the forefront in bluegrass...and made it acceptable. Sort of. Some people still thought guitar leads were heresy, even up to the early 70's.
Ok, enough bluegrass 101. The important thing isn't the label - play anything you can with whoever will invite you. that's ho new stuff develops. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Steve Dodson
From:
Sparta, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 4:04 pm
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| I know what you mean Steve. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 4:07 pm
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| There is a line about musical definitions being etched in stone, just like tombstones being etched in stone just waiting to be written. Not being a writer, I'll have to pass. |
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Charles Turpin
From:
Mexico, Missouri, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 5:04 pm
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If i was you I"d go for it. I played at a show here in Missouri for three years and the main instruments where Banjo and Steel We did country and blue grass. Blue grass is a hard music to play on the steel. But I loved it.And so did the boss. I always played bluegrass on the steel cause i loved the idea of figuring out the licks then seeing how fast I could play them. It also helps to build a lot of different finger rolls on the guitar. So I say go for it.And Doug always burns up the steel convention in St. Louis with " the orange blossom special" Plus he has a whole course out on blue grass music. PLus look at all your speed picking courses and most of them you will find blue grass licks and usualy a banjo roll or two 
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Bill OConnor
From:
Castle Rock, Washington, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 5:38 pm
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I love blue grass , country, western swing and gospel. I play in all those groups I find players in each group just as hard nosed about not wanting any change coming in. Pedal steel sounds great in blue grass long as it keeps the proper balance.And i notice blue grass players are glad to get their turn to play into the ELETRIC mic.And some gospel pickers think country is sin. and westerners think country picker know only three chords.It is all done with the same 12 notes. If we never changed we would still rub flint stones to start a fire.For me pedal steel fits anywhere the player can cut it.
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 6:58 pm
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| Quote: |
| Ok, enough bluegrass 101. |
Thanks, Jim - now that we have the authoritative word that the Osborne Bros, Jim and Jesse, and J.D. Crowe and the New South are not bluegrass because they have used electric instruments, I think I'll sleep better at night.
Sorry, man - maybe Steve Hinson is right, and I should just skip the argument - after all, it is a purely a matter of definition and opinion. But since the "pure acoustic" definition folks feel free to state their opinions loudly and forcefully, I'll state mine. IMHO, bluegrass is a feel, and it matters not if a doghouse or electric bass is keeping that low end going. Don't get me wrong - I love acoustic bluegrass, and I have played in acoustic bluegrass bands in the past. But, to me, if it feels like bluegrass, it is bluegrass, and I don't care what the instrumentation is. Definitions are really nothing more than codified aggregate opinions, and there is no longer uniform agreement on this, IMHO.
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| And oddly, bluegrass banjo as we know it wasn't even part of the first bluegrass bands. |
Yes, there is evolution, even in bluegrass. Believe it or not, it's OK for this to continue. Bluegrass does not have to continue a state of arrested development in perpetuity. A musical style either grows, or dies and becomes a museum piece.
This type of debate has raged in several styles of music. There are people who still insist that real blues is only played acoustically, and real folk music is only played acoustically. Those ideas were dead and buried a long time ago by guys like Muddy Waters, Lightnin' Hopkins, and Bob Dylan, but some people will still argue that. To get college-age "folk audiences" to listen to Muddy and Lightnin' in the late 50s and early 60s, they had them play acoustically. But that's just marketing, and so is this preoccupation with acoustic in bluegrass.
I also chuckle at the concept of "pure acoustic instruments", when I look at the amount of electronics used to project that "pure acoustic tone" to a large auditorium or stadium-size audience. A piezo pickup is a pickup, and often pretty bloody electric-sounding. It's an electric instrument in that context.
To me, the electrified music mentioned earlier, not to mention the New Grass movement is exciting music, and bluegrass at that. I believe that a lot of modern pedal steel playing, with its fast licks oriented approach, owes a lot to those pioneering steel players who burned it up 30-35 years ago, and continue to do so. I'll tell ya', I wouldn't want to be the one to tell Doug Jernigan that his playing on "Gone, Gone, Gone" on the "My Home is in the Hall of Fame" album by J.D. Crowe ain't bluegrass.
{In fact, check out the J.D. Crowe "Live in Japan album from that same period - late 70s - for acoustic versions of those same tunes. Aside from the absence of steel, they are both extremely similar, and definitely bluegrass.}
Asbestos flame suit on - and I'm glad this isn't an acoustic bluegrass forum. They would boil me in oil, I'm sure. |
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