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Topic: Head to cab cable |
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 11:50 am |
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I'm relatively new to a head/cab configuration, having used combo amps exclusively for decades.
I was on a gig with my Milkman The Amp and a Dr. Z cab Saturday night, and when I got things hooked up, there was a hum. Well, lighting etc. was suspected, but when I switched the speaker cable, the hum was nearly gone.
As far as I know, I'm using proper speaker cables.
What speaker cable would you head/cab users recommend? While I understand gold is a controversial topic on plugs, how does this one look?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GoldSpk03--mogami-gold-speaker-03-ts-ts-speaker-cable-3-foot
Also, I know to avoid using a guitar cable for the amp, but what is the reason - ruining the head?
Thanks for any advice; I'm quite aware of lighting, grounding, etc. issues with electronics (my own home has been properly grounded but is not very quiet, possibly due to a substation a few doors away), but I do wish to be sure I've got excellent cables.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 12:19 pm
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That looks fine.
The problem with using guitar cables is that the wire in the cable is too small to carry the current for a speaker. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 12:25 pm
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Thanks, Jeff.
I would not (knowingly) use a guitar cable, but I was curious as to what the result might be (disaster?).
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 1:39 pm
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| Worst case I suppose would be to get hot melt insulation and short out, But also it would restrict power output. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 1:42 pm
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also know you can get BLACK 14 G / PAIR at Lowes by the foot. They also have reasonably good 1/4 connectors .
Years back I made 2 x 24, 2 x 15, 4 x 10 and 2 x 6 footer's for the sound system and monitors. All are still functioning fine.
ya never know when you need one.
And yeah, don't use an instrument cable.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 2:04 pm
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| Daniel Morris wrote: |
| I would not (knowingly) use a guitar cable, but I was curious as to what the result might be (disaster?). |
As long as the cable is in perfect order, disasters should not happen 
Problem with guitar cables used as speaker cables, is that such a thin cable will act more like a bungee cord for electrons at high power, and give the amplifier little control over the speaker. The thicker the speaker cable, the better the control and resulting sound – up to a point where the cable becomes absurdly thick and impossible to connect.
Don't know why gold on plugs should be a controversial topic. Gold doesn't corrode (which is good), and assure a better contact surface than other contact platings. That gold isn't the best conductor in the world doesn't matter here since it is such a thin layer.
What you have there, is fine. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 2:16 pm
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Thanks, Georg.
As I say, I would never knowingly use a guitar cable for an amp; I was only asking about it out of curiosity (or in the event I goofed in a dark venue).
I've been told that the gold coating on plugs is rather meaningless, that having it does not do anything for a connection, and will ultimately rub off anyway.
Some folks feel otherwise.
I simply don't know.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 2:49 pm
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| Gold is good for connectors that are rarely pulled apart as it resists corrosion. If frequently pulled out you wear through the gold to the nickel which is not really a problem, just not as corrosion resistant in fixed applications. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 2:51 pm
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Ah, that might explain the issue of gold.
Thanks, Jeff.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Feb 2020 3:16 pm
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| Right! If the connectors are regularly plugged and unplugged, the friction of those actions will normally keep both the plugs and jacks clean. Gold is good for connections where things are seldom plugged and unplugged, such as connections inside an amplifier, in a studio, or a permanent audio installation in a church or bar. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 4:54 am
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What about using brown electric extension cord?
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 5:16 am
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwIvUbOhcKE
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 6:17 am
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| Bud Angelotti wrote: |
| What about using brown electric extension cord? |
For a speaker wire? Yes! That's a perfect choice, once you have the jacks properly installed on each end. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 11:25 am
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Related question: I recently picked up a Carvin BX500 amp/preamp head, using my existing 1/4">1/4" cable to run into Telonics cab with 15" JBL. The Carvin manual recommends SPKN cable for "best connection." Does that really make any tangible difference? If so, anyone recommend a great brand?
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 1:26 pm
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I presume that is cables with SPEAKON plugs.
Neutrik plugs are good some of the cheap knockoff are flimsy.
Speakon are the standard for high power applications such as PA because they have a larger and more positive contact area than the 1/4" plug and they lock in place
I would prefer to go for speakon if you have the option and certainly once you start getting much over 100W |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 2:56 pm
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Guess I'm a rebel. 
I really don't care for the Speakon or the (similar, but not interchangeable) Powercon connectors, and just consider them a marketing gimmick. The standard 1/4" phone plug/jack does everything I need it to do, and they're easy enough to clean and re-tension. |
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Ken Morgan
From:
Midland, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 3:10 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Guess I'm a rebel.
I really don't care for the Speakon or the (similar, but not interchangeable) Powercon connectors, and just consider them a marketing gimmick. The standard 1/4" phone plug/jack does everything I need it to do, and they're easy enough to clean and re-tension. |
You’re not alone. There are single channel cable, double channel cable, and bridge mode cables. Regular old 1/4†heavy stuff always works.
_________________
67 Shobud Blue Darling III, scads of pedals and such, more 6 strings than I got room for
Ken Morgan
Midland, TX |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 3:16 pm
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Whenever you throw away a toaster etc clip the power cord off it... don't waste the speaker cable! If you look closely at the cable one side is ribbed, one side is smooth... I connect the ribbed side to the tip to maintain phase.
Shielded cables have two problems for speaker connections... a) the amperage is more than they're designed for and b) they have a lot more capacitance, which can mess with certain output circuits.
Never use GeorgeL-type cables for speakers... never! Good speaker connections are soldered only.
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 6:51 pm
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This is getting a bit confusing for me - are speaker cables typically shielded?
I won't be using toaster wire.
What brands do y'all recommend?
The Mogami I originally posted?
Divine Noise?
I do hope this is not another rabbit hole....
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 7:04 pm
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Speaker cables are not shielded, they don't need it.
For non audiophile applications like your short head to cab virtually any 2 conductor cable with reasonably sized conductors and good quality plugs will do
For diy a two conductor power cable works fine, hence the toaster cable reference |
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Thomas Stone
From:
San Francisco
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 9:20 pm
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To summarize:
Cables that low currents can have very skinny copper conductors, but they are very susceptible to picking up noise, so they need to be shielded.
Cables that carry high currents need beefier copper conductors, but they are nearly immune to picking up noise, so they don't need to be shielded.
The current produced by a pickup is tiny (typically microamperes), so instrument cables need to be shielded.
The current out of an amp going to a speaker is strong (on the order of amperes) so shielding is unnecessary and lamp cord is perfectly acceptable. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 3 Feb 2020 10:40 pm
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Never use instrument cables to connect a guitar amp to speaker(s)! Instrument cables are designed only for low-voltage/low-current signals. Thus the wire gauge is almost always too thin to handle the much higher current coming out of a power amp. I've actually seen people melt instrument wire hooking up, e.g., a relatively high power amp like a Fender Showman to speakers. This caused the output circuit to open up, exposing their tube amp to a no-load situation, which is very, very bad.
Instrument cable needs to be shielded because electromagnetic interference can significantly interfere with low-voltage/low-current instrument signals. There is no such need for shielding in speaker cable in most situations because the voltage/current levels are so much higher.
And as Stephen notes, shielded cable typically has significantly higher capacitance than 2-conductor side-by-side cable (also called zip cord or lamp cord), which can significantly change the complex impedance of the total load. Perhaps not a big deal for a real short run, but I can see no reason to pay premium prices for shielded speaker cable.
I personally think spending $44 for gold-plated speaker cable is a waste of money. That Mogami cable uses their 3082 cable - you can see the spec sheet here - http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/ - and note that the capacitance is 77pF/foot. Typical zip/lamp cord has capacitance of about 10-20 pF/foot. IMO, the issue is getting thick enough high-quality copper wire to keep the resistance sufficiently low. Unless you want to significantly separate your head and speaker cab, you're talking 1-3 foot cable.
Here are a couple of references to guide selection of speaker wire - the wikipedia article has lots of references to other info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
I think Roger Russell's article helps dispel many (IMO) myths about speaker cable. Both articles give a reasonable table to guide choice of wire gauge for various applications.
For a short run such as 1-3 feet from a 50 to 100-watt amp to speaker(s), I typically use 16 or 14 gauge zip cord. 12 gauge is great but kind of a PITA to work with and not really necessary for such a short run, IMO. I personally prefer right-angle jacks such as used on original Fender amps for the simple practical reason that they don't stick out from the head. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2020 11:27 am
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This actually is a bigger issue for Milkman "The Amp", where the amp is on your pedalboard and the speaker is backlined....I use a 15 foot cable to connect, just lamp cord, and it works fine...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 4 Feb 2020 1:22 pm
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It makes much more sense to run short instrument cables and long speaker cables.
This is a nice bonus with The Amp pedal - you can keep the high impedance cable runs short (better for tone) and use a very long speaker cable to the cabinet behind you and your signal will degrade much less as opposed to doing it the other way around with a short speaker cable and long instrument cable
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2020 1:37 pm
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Aha! Yet another reason why The Amp is THE AMP!!!
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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