Pros/Cons of Half Stop Feel (G) between F#-G# lever?

Luke Moldof · From: Rhode Island, USA

Hello,
I've put a down payment on what will be my first D10 and am trying to finalize my decisions for its copedent. Up until this point, I've only been playing on a Carter Starter. Though my knowledge of pedal steel mechanics isn't great, my understanding of theory is strong. (I went to a conservatory for Jazz Guitar). I figured that it makes more sense to make specific threads about the decisions I'm working out for my copedent, than to start a single thread regarding all the various questions. I also realize that some of what I'm asking has some potential overlap with Andy Henricksen's previous threads, so I apologize if any of this seems redundant.

I'm basically looking to find some clarity as to whether having a half stop feel put on my RKL lever that will be bringing F#'s to G# on strings 1 and 7 (along with D# to E on string 2) will present any drawbacks.

I'd like to have that G natural primarily for some Mooney style licks (Bottle Let me Down, Swinging Doors, etc.), but it also seems useful for being able to get a minor 1 chord or a 4 dominant (I realize you can also get this two frets down with E lower and B lever) all in first position.

I've never played a guitar with a half stop feel before so I'm not sure what I'm in for with this. Will it prevent me from getting chordal or single note moves that I'd be able to get if it wasn't there?

It seems like there must be some drawbacks or everyone would have this on their guitars, so can someone please explain what I'm not understanding. I could swear I've seen an old thread from years back where Paul Franklin, mentioned having this change, but from the copedent charts that I've found, it doesn't seem like many have this implemented.

If anyone could share their thoughts / advice on the matter, I'd really appreciate it.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I tried the half stop on the first string as you mentioned. Hated it. I play licks that require me to hit the lever that gives me the G note quickly. I could never hit the G exact every time. I have my vertical raising both F#'s to G (had that change for more than 45 years). I also raise string 1 to G# on another lever. A lot of times, I will just pull string 1 towards me with my left hand middle finger behind the bar. Works good and looks cool. ðŸ˜Ž
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I pull my F#s to G. Very Happy

Erv

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 16 Jan 2020 12:33 pm

Luke

I have the half stop. Iâ€™m kind of like Richard though. I donâ€™t know that I really like it. I do use it. Some of my not liking it is because itâ€™s hard for me to really feel it. Itâ€™s on my vertical and I admit to vertical being my least comfortable lever.

Itâ€™s a very good question. Honestly I can do just as well without the half stop on 1 and 7

Hope this helps

Bill

John Swain · From: Winchester, Va

Luke, I raise 1,2+7 on LKR. I rod it so string 2 provides a half feel stop giving me Gs on 1+7 . They're not quite in tune but useable for a b7. I also lower 3+6 to G on my vertical and this is in tune!

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

I use plungers for half stops. Most of them can be adjusted for the pressure. You can definitely feel the stop.

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John Swain · From: Winchester, Va

Bill, how do you mount these?

Asa Brosius · Posted 17 Jan 2020 4:59 am

I use the change often- smooth slow bends to Ab aren't as seamless as without the 1/2 stop. Sounds like people are having trouble keeping it tuned- I'd suggest verifying that your builder can give you a rock-solid tuneable 1/2 stop feel.

Andy Henriksen · From: Michigan, USA

After I posted the similar question in another thread, I played for a couple days and tried to REALLY assess whether or not I like the feel stop.

Basically, it's like this (for me), if I'm bending a note up into that G, I can hit the stop no problem. I can feel it, but more importantly I can hear it. However, if I had a lick that required me to pre-bend, and START right on the G, I wouldn't have confidence that I could do it in tune. It's basically like I can "feel" the stop with my ears as much as my leg.

As somewhat of a beginner myself, I'm frankly not running into many opportunities to use the G#, but I'm also not quite ready to give it up for a solid G, as I suspect the G# will come into play more as my skills and knowledge increase.

Jack Stanton · From: Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey

I have it on both my push pull and my Legrand and it's quite usable on both guitars. It's a matter of timing the other pulls on the lever correctly.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

What Jack said. The 2nd string E pull resistance should be timed where it picks up the first string's G note between the F# and G#. No hardware required. I have always done this on my guitars. It's a sort of a built in Happy Accident half stop and it works well for me.

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Luke Moldof · From: Rhode Island, USA

Thanks so much for all the responses. A lot of very helpful info!

I think it might be relevant to mention that the D10 I will be buying will be a new from the factory Williams. It was actually Bill, who mentioned the idea of having the split stop put in, when I expressed the desire to get G naturals from my copedent. I will definitely discuss this more with him.

I should also mention that as of now my plan for the rest of the E9 neck, is to basically go standard Emmons with E's on the left knee, B flat as my vertical, and D half stop to C sharp on string 2 along with C sharp on string 9 on my right knee left. Importantly I will be adding a Franklin pedal as my 0 pedal and because of what I've read, being a member of the Paul Franklin method, it seems best to avoid having my RKL bring G sharp to F sharp on the 6 string and instead have a pull on the 7th that brings F sharp up to G sharp. I know that by giving up that change it makes it more difficult to achieve the tuneable split G natural that I'd be getting on string 6. I suppose I could still get this by employing the Franklin pedal and the B pedal, but this seems a bit unwieldy and would mean from my understanding, having to press my 0, A, and B pedals at the same time with my left foot or use my left foot for the 0 pedal and bring my right foot in to play the B pedal.

Anyway, everyone's thought and experience has been extremely helpful thus far, but I'm still left a bit uncertain. For those of you who did not like or were having tuning issues with the half stop at G natural on your lever, was this possibly related to your guitar not being able to provide an accurate half stop feel on the lever, that would be achievable on my new Williams? Again it seems to me like no matter what, there must be some sacrifice made in order to get this half stop, or everyone buying a new steel that could accommodate this change would have it preinstalled. As somebody who's never played a steel with a half stop feel, I have no experience with what a half stop lever feels like (no pun intended). Having the half stop change on string 2 from D to C sharp seems very standard and so I wonder why people don't find that one to be problematic in terms of mobility or tuning. (I know there are some that split the change and have different levers and / or pedals bringing string 2 to D and separately to C sharp, but having both notes on one lever still seems way more common). Could this be because the D to C sharp split is used more for chords, whereas the G to G sharp is used more for faster single note phrase or as a "blue note," and thus one needs to access the G more quickly? Hopefully this all makes sense and people can chime in on the matter.

If it's decided that I don't go with the half stop feel between F sharp and G sharp, then perhaps I might want to add a change that goes to G natural on another lever? My questions then becomes, where to place this lever and if it makes more sense to have a change that brings my F sharps up or my G sharps down to G natural. The way things are as of now my E9 neck will have 4 pedals and 5 knee levers. Ideally I . want to avoid going overboard and making things to convoluted (don't think I'm ready for the Crawford Cluster), but I'd also like to add as many knee levers and pedals as I think I'll want at the time of purchase, instead of having to deal with making copedent changes and adding levers or pedals later (which I know will probably eventually happen inevitably). So if I add a seperate G natural knee lever, would it be most practical to add it as a second Left Knee or somewhere else? And if I go this wrought does it make more sense to bring my F sharps up to G natural or take my G sharps down (like Mooney did although I know he did it on a pedal). Asides from everything else, it seems the difference in access to an open string E minor 9 or (dominant) sharp 9 chord.

Another option would be to do away with any G natural change for now, I definitely want to bring my F sharps to G sharp along with my D sharp to E, because I'm a student of the Franklin method and want to work with a similar copedent to him and Emmons. When I play the Mooney licks that require a G as of now, I bend behind the bar on the first string as Richard Sinkler mentioned and this works very well.

Sorry to be so wordy and I apologize if I'm going overboard on this, I just want to start with the steel in the best place possible and because I've only played the Carter Starter, I don't have much to relearn or adjust to regarding the placement of extra pedals and levers. I really appreciate all of your help!

Thanks,
Luke

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

If you do add a separate lever for the F#'s to G, a 2nd LKL is a decent place for it. I prefer it on my vertical. I tried it on my 2nd LKL, but just prefer it on the vertical. A lot of players use the G#'s to G changes. I had it on my first guitar, a ZB Custom with 5 pedals and 5 levers, although it was on a pedal. Rarely used it, and have too many other changes I prefer, to waste (for me) a lever on it.

Pulling the first string with your bar hand does work. I use it for single string runs though. For using it in chords, I found it inconsistent for getting in-tune chords. I use the 7th string raise to G for licks, and the option for using the bar hand to pull it up is not really a good option.

The half stop on my Carter is pretty positive. They use a half finger where an 11th string would go, (only the section that lowers a string) attached to a spring. From the factory, it wasn't too great. To create more resistance, I snipped one loop off the spring, and re-mounted it. Nice and positive now. I tried a half stop on the vertical on my C6 neck, and it is just too difficult to execute with lifting the knee. I have more control with my knees going left and right.

Is Bill going to use a mechanical half stop, or a change on another string to create the feel of the half stop? The second change on another string is the method he used on the Williams had. I really don't care for that method. I like to be able to tune the half stop independently from the tuning of another string.

All of analyzing and questioning up front is a good thing. If one can afford it, I think it is best to get all you want when the guitar is built. Adding levers after you get the guitar is a real pain in the butt. You either need to be real handy, or run the risk of shipping it to a qualified repairman. The risk of damage and the high cost of shipping is too stressful for me. Plus, the time without a guitar is tough.
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Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

My LKR raises my 1st string F# to G# while lowering string 6th#-F#For some reason there is a half stop feel that kicks in and Raises string #1F# to G...This was an accident that is really useful,Not really sure why it happens but I'll take it.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

[quote="Bill Dobkins"]I use plungers for half stops. Most of them can be adjusted for the pressure. You can definitely feel the stop.

Bill where do you get these?

Luke Moldof · From: Rhode Island, USA

Thanks again so much for the responses. At the moment Iâ€™m leaning toward the idea of skipping the half stop feel and having a second left knee left lever that brings my g sharps to g. Iâ€™ll definitely discuss this more with Bill Rudolph before committing but this is where my thinking is at currently. Iâ€™d rather pay the extra money and have the extra lever installed at the time of purchase and decide I donâ€™t need / want it than try to add extra levers after the fact.

Again as somebody who has never had the opportunity to play a steel with a half stop feel, Iâ€™m a bit confused why having the second string go to d natural and then C sharp is so common place and unproblematic for people with regards to tuning and performance feel, while having the g Natural split between f sharp and g sharp seems to cause issue both in terms of tuning and performance. Iâ€™m sure thereâ€™s some logical explanation that Iâ€™m missing, but if any folks could comment on that discrepancy, Iâ€™d really appreciate it.

Any other thoughts / comments are welcome and greatly appreciated. I think Iâ€™ll soon be making another post or posts with questions I have regarding the c6 neck. Iâ€™m so grateful for everyoneâ€™s knowledge / suggestions / support.

Thanks,
Luke

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Try it and see how you it. If you like it, keep it, If not, get rid of it. It's purely a matter of personal preference. And the only way to decide whether it's for you is to live with it for a while.
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Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

[quote="Paul Brainard"]

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