6th string whole tone lower

Andy Henriksen · From: Michigan, USA

I got a new to me SD10 Fessenden a few months back, after a few years of playing a Stage One. The Fessy has, on the RKL:

String 1: F# > G#
String 2: D# > E
String 6: G# > F#

I keep seeing comments from people like Paul Franklin that the 6th string lower on that lever is problematic because it clashes with the string 1 raise. That's been my experience as well. I like to use that lever for things like Swinging Doors and The Bottle Let Me Down, but then I have to limit my 1st string sustain, because I need to be off the pedal before I play anything on the 6th string. I'm not particularly interested in doing behind-the-bar bends to avoid this. That's why we have all these pedals and levers, right? So, as of now, that is the only thing I don't like about the Fessy.

So, 1st question: what am I missing? Why, if it tends to "clash," is this a seemingly common lever assignment? What can I do with it that might make me appreciate it more?

2nd q: Should I just eliminate the 6th string lower entirely from that lever? Should I add something else instead? (I think PF recommends a 7th string raise instead.) If so, how easy is that? As someone who has never messed with the underside of a PSG, but who is moderately handy, can I handle it?

Thanks!

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

That RKL string setup is exactly what I have on my Franklin and also the factory standard on my GFI. When Carter guitar was in business that was their standard changes for the RKL.

I've never had a "clash" with that set up, although I don't have Paul's setup on my Franklin or GFI and will defer to Paul and the licks he is referring to.

I also had the 1st string raise and the 6th string lower on a PP Emmons. Thus I've had the 1st string raise and 6th string lower since 1971 when I got the Emmons new. I got the 2nd string raise added to that RKL when I got the Franklin new in early 80's.

I raise the 7th string with RKR lever (along with lowering 2nd string).

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 3 Jan 2020 10:27 am

I too thought about splitting this up. I have those same changes on my vertical. But I use it a lot with the Franklin pedal. If I could get comfortable with a second rkl I might split off the 6 string lower and leave the vertical with string 1 and 2 raising. But for now Iâ€™m stuck with it on the vertical

Bill

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I have a 1st string raise to G on the same lever that lowers 6, which is also quite common. I never experience a conflict - with pedals down both those strings give a G.

A lot of folks who like to raise 1&2 together do so on a pedal, I believe - that would avoid any problem.
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

the 1st string raise and the 6 string whole tone lower is indeed a dissonant sound together , but learning how to block one or the other is not a big deal.

My 4 lever P Pull has these changes on the same lever, RKL. On my 5 or more lever guitars I always moved 6 lower ( whole tone ) to the V lever and placed the 7th string raise on the RKL. My current Legrande II has both the 5 and 6 whole tone lower on the V lever. The RKL has 1,2 and 7 raise.

Right, I do not drop the B to Bb. Never did.
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

I lower all G# strings to F# on RKL – two strings on my E9s and three strings on my Extended Es, and no connection to strings one and two. Like having the G# strings moving together.

Franklin · Posted 4 Jan 2020 3:55 am

Andy great question...

Due to playing on many radio hits from Alan Jackson, Tracy Byrd, George Strait etc I was looking for a new pedal change to break up the mix....So I raised strings 1 (F#) and 2 (D#) on the same lever, which raises those notes to G# and E...

The notes G# & E create a major triad with strings 1 2 5 &6 (G#) on my lever to get the sounds of groups 1 and 2....If players also lower the 6th string to F# that option is not there...Lowering it eliminates all of the chordal bending options I have which also have a different timbre from the typical A& B pedals..Very useful...Those A&B chordal bends have been done to death and I was looking for something new....I can hit strings 1 2 & 6 with the lever and everyone hears the sound of strings 3 4 & 5 then I smoothly release it and activate the B pedal..This gives a 1 major triad bending into a 5 dominant 7th with a counterpoint touch (2 Strings bending down as the G# bends up) ....There are so many lick options without the 6th string lower...There are also several counterpoint options between the 1st string raise and 6th string when players are able to play 6th string notes due to the lever leaving it untouched...And then the bar slants takes it to another level of options..It goes on and on with what can be done if you don't lower the 6th string. Most that lower the 6th on the same lever refer to it as a lick change....You get some cascading scale things but that's about it due to the conflicting combination.

So with my lever raised - the F# is a G# and the D# is an E...I can pick an E chord in the open position on strings 4 5 & 6 then press A&B down for the 4 chord and add the lever raising 1 & 2 to get beautiful sounding major 7th chordal bends.

These are just a few examples of what "can not" be played if the G# is lowered on the same lever,,,,Now just multiply all of the riffs you know using those A&B pedals...If you lower 6 the lever is useless with all of those pedals down options.

Also the G# whole tone lower should have access to an E and Eb note. which go away by raising strings 1 & 2...It's not a complimentary combo - Instead it presents musical conflicts.

What happened was after "Here in the Real World", "Keeper of the Stars" and several others hit #1 using my version of the lever change. Overnight the raises became a mainstay for Nashville players needing to copy that sound of the descending cascading lick... Not only was I being asked to play that sound everywhere, Hughey, Bouton, Dugmore, Tommy White, Weldon, Rugg, Johnson, etc pretty much every studio player was putting the descending lick everywhere.

Back in the days when Sho_Bud existed a mistake like this would have never seen the light of day...At Sho-Bud and Emmons the greats were always hanging out and when something was desired the change would get the R&D from Rugg, Emmons, Charlton, Weldon or whoever walked in and all were asked to check this new thing out....All of the legends understood theory enough to see the conflicts placing pedals in the wrong position causes or when players ask to combine changes like this....The pro level R&D Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars received was what the rest of the manufacturers followed. Every manufacturer knew the pros were inputing the copedants at Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars....Listen to the masters conversation with Weldon, Rugg, Lloyd and Jimmy Crawford or the Lloyd Green or the Tommy White interviews and listen to their take on the evolution of changes. Copedent changes should coincide with theory....We can only use so many pedals and knees at one time - its best to get the most math out of them.

At Sho-Bud purchasers ordering weird illogical combinations like the one in question were warned away from them...They were told if you do that you will be losing possibilities. Those that don't know theory will always combine stuff that does not compliment....I wish that kind of input would exist these days.

Landon Johnson · From: Washington, USA

I have posted a poll asking this same question but now I am thinking the right answer might be this. Guess I'll have to get out the tools and swap the pull that lowers 6 and put it on 2 to raise it a half step with the full step 1 raise.

I use the 'chromatic strings' up there a lot and this makes sense to me. All I have found with string 1 +1 and string 6 -1 are a few single note riffs, but chording with that lever is a waste of time so far. I'm just basing that on my vast two years of experience, which is why I posted the poll. I'm always concerned about changing something in the early stages of my development that I will regret later.

Travis Toy · From: Nashville, TN, USA

Paul beat me to it. Haha. This change of raising 1, 2, and lowering 6 on the same lever becoming a standard assignment, drives me crazy. It would really mess up a lot of things for me. Paul pointed out quite a few. By raising the 7th string along with 1 and 2, you gain the octave down version of a few things Paul described as well. For instance, strings 5, 6, 7, 8 A+B pedals and your 7th string raised, will give you a very nice major 7th voicing, among many other chord uses. I use that change quite often as well in a pedals up position to give me the sound of the A pedal in the pedals down position. Meaning, a 2 note being bent up to a 3 note.

Now, all of that being said, I ALSO lower my 6th string on my vertical lever. Many people see that as a redundant change when you also raise 7, but they are used and applied in completely different ways. Having the 6th string lower on the vertical, allows me to split it with the B pedal and get a 4 semitone range on that string. Meaning that you could use it with A+B pedals down to get a dominant 7 chord in your 4 5 6, 5 6 8, or 6 8 10 grips. You could split it with the B pedal in a pedals up position to lower your 3rd to a minor 3rd. You can do note movements within chords, etc. Itâ€™s a very good change, but again, I would never want it attached to the lever that raises 1 and 2.

-t
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Franklin · Posted 4 Jan 2020 8:14 am

Hi Landon.

Its theory...For building most chord voicings we must have access to the 3rd or the root.

The G# (6th string) is the 3rd of an E major chord and the 8th string is its root

With A&B down we get an A major chord. The "A" is the root located on the 6th string - the 5th string B is the 3rd.

Add 1st and 2nd string intervals to the root(1) and 3rd (Open position E) D# (Maj 7) and F# (9th) and you have a maj 9th chord (beautiful voicing)..Hit the lever with the 2 raises only and it bends back into E major for the resolve while the root and 3rd can sustain throughout.

Do the exact move in the 4 chord position using its root and 3rd (as I explained where they are located above and you get one of the prettiest maj 7th voicings.

A musical fact: anytime a pedal combination gives the player a multitude of chording options that same player is free to find the hundreds of lick options those chordal notes provide.

Paul Franklin

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Travis Toy · From: Nashville, TN, USA

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 4 Jan 2020 7:06 pm

Guys this is a great thread. Thanks to Paul and Travis for the insight. These comments and such really got me to thinking ðŸ¤” so I went in there awhile ago and moved that 6 lower back over to pedal 4. Replaced with the 7 raise, now its back to 127 raising. 1 and 7 also have a half stop to g natural now which is what I originally had on the vertical. These are awesome tips from everyone, appreciate it thanks a bunch.

And Travis really got me thinking about the b to Bb change. I use it a lot travisâ€™ comments made me realize Iâ€™m not using that change to its full potential.

Thanks again

Bill

Franklin · Posted 5 Jan 2020 4:37 am

Bill,

Back when Emmons first put the B to Bb change on for playing the jazz chords on E9th...I witnessed Buddy expand upon why he decided on adding the specific change and what he envisioned..

Those were the days when the concept of finding "Universal Tunings" was being seriously considered by many..Jernigan went to a D12 seeking more out of the E9 and C6...I heard Buddy talk about the subject at his house jams where Buddy loved to elaborate on his thoughts and explorations...I should add: the focus Newman was putting forth was based on keeping the timbre of the E9 -our bread and butter tuning. Clearly Buddy had thought it through.

Buddy said the B to Bb change is 1/2 the solution for E9th players wanting to play Jazz tunes.. Buddy said if there were two more pedals on the E9th - one lowering the B's to Bb and right next to it another pedal lowering the 6th a 1/2 tone they would have most of what they need except the few low intervals and importantly the timbre of the C6th. The mechanisms of the day prevented that thought from happening. The Emmons, MSA, and Sho-Buds were not quite ready to handle so many pulls working both necks like they can do today.

Buddy also said tuning the E9th down to a C9 or a 5th to B9 would be the E9 players way to go...That makes total sense, they could get closer to the timbre due to heavier gauges of strings. That leaves adding a few extended low intervals to complete the copy of the C6th on E9...In the early 70's those were his thoughts towards a possible universal approach.

In those days I was curious and inquisitive about the universal approach. My conclusion back then: I always thought a D10 for those single neck E9th players made more musical sense....They could have 2 variations of the same tuning (E9th the back neck B9th)..There are so many who advance fast on E9th and for some reason the C6th stops them. (For those who do not want to devote the time to master two separate tunings this seems like the logical way to go).

I rarely elaborate about this period of my explorations, but in the 90's I actually pursued Buddy's conversational idea. I still have the D10 Dad made that did exactly what I am talking about....Its listed on many CD's in the 90's as the "Baritone steel"...At first it was a 5th lower then I went a step farther and had a Triple Neck made... I put the standard E9 and C6 and made the 3rd neck a baritone tuning..except this time I tuned it an octave below E9....Because I envisioned doing what guitarists do with 6 string bass, doubling fast solos with an octave below unison....I wanted to see what it sounded like on sessions....Its heard on Womacks "Half Past Little Rock" and the B9th tuning was used on Dire Straits "Bug" with vibrato on a very simple part...Those are good timbre options for the E9 only players.

Moving to Nashville at 17... I developed the same curious and inquisitive nature as my main C6th influences. There were many in Nashville and elsewhere with a focus towards expanding the pedal steel into Jazz, Rock, and Funk directions... Buddy and Hal were inspirational to me because they could share their ideas on vinyl so everyone could hear. But Randy Reinhart, Mike Smith, Terry Crisp, Randy Beavers, Tommy White, Reece Anderson, Gene O.neil, Hank Corwin, and more were all pushing the boundaries of copedents needed for other genres. All of them were influencing each other... I credit all of them as crucial components in developing the ideas being revisited today. There was a lot left on the table by Buddy, Hal, Reece, Curly, etc. Just sayin' Also Terry Crisp recorded many sessions using his version of the Baritone tuning.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Paul, I'm glad to see Hank Corwin's name mentioned. I met Hank when I worked at Little Roy Wiggins music store. Hank was Julliard trained and I picked his brains every chance I could. A lot of what I learned about C6th is from Hank.

Travis Toy · From: Nashville, TN, USA

George Webb · From: Mississauga, Ont, CAN

Andy,

I don't see this mentioned yet.

If you only want your first string to raise to G to get a 7th when you're doing the 'Bottle Let Me Down' with the pedals down ... then you're RKL can be setup to only pull the first string to G for the first half the travel ... then
pull it to G# along with raising the 2nd and lowering the 6th on the second half of the travel.
My Legrande III is set up this way and it works well for me.
Cheers,

George Webb

Andy Henriksen · From: Michigan, USA

Great input from some of my favorite players here! Thanks so much, everyone.

So, I think this thread has confirmed my hunch that the good does not outweigh the bad re/ this change.

So, on to my second question in the OP - what to do about it?

Again, to reiterate, I've never changed a coped on a PSG. I know there are probably countless threads on this, so if the easiest way to answer is to point to another thread, please do so!

Otherwise, who wants to walk me through the process? Can I do it with existing parts? Can I just move the pull rod for 6th string to the 7th? I suspect there's a bit more to it than that...

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Charlie Thompson · From: South Carolina, USA

So I moved the 6th lower to a 7th raise just to see... I see many have that change. Travis gave one good use for the 7th raise.. any others?

Travis Toy · From: Nashville, TN, USA

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Andy, raising the 7th string will need quite a bit more travel then lowering the 6th. So you won't use the same bellcrank or changer rod positions. Look at what you have now for the 6th string, when you move the bellcrank over for the 7th, use the 3rd hole on the raise changer finger. That is, the third one down from the top of the guitar. As for the bellcrank, see what slot is used for the 6th string, then move the rod up to a higher slot, away from the bottom side of the guitar.

If you find that you can't get both the open note and the raised not in tune on 7, you need more travel, go to a higher slot on the bellcrank, farther away from the bottom of the guitar.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 6 Jan 2020 4:17 pm

Andy you should be able to just move the pull rod over to string 7 raise as Bill Moore details above. But (We) can walk you through it if need be.

Bill

Btw thanks again to Paul and Travis for all the good details.

Paul I never knew just what buddyâ€™s thoughts were regarding the b to Bb lower

Iâ€™m also kind of liking the way tommy White has his, mainly cause Iâ€™m so used to mine being on the rkl.

Using your pedal 4 has grown on me over time. I used to just â€œhave it on thereâ€ but finally started learning to use it more and more.

I still donâ€™t have the g# lower to e yet but....

Btw Travis... I talked to Kyle Bennett the other day...13 month lead time on a new msa, but like Iâ€™m really really wanting one...I watched your videos with your msa and Mickeyâ€™s with Cody angels. Awesome guitars

Thanks again

Bill

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

This thread and Paul and Travis' uses got me thinking last night on a job. I lower the 6th string a full tone and split with the B pedal. My E's lower knee was the most used knee lever but the knee lowering the 6th string was the second most that I used. I defer to the Pro's but for me I would be lost without that change. (And at age 82 I see no reason to change).

Jacek Jakubek · From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

I also find that the 6th string lower to F# currently on my guitars interferes with the high F#->G# change sometimes. I'll be playing some lick with the lever using the high raise to G# and I'll hear my 6th string moving down to F#, unintentionally.

Paul's advice to split these two changes looks like the ideal thing to do to maximize all your use out of them and avoid any interference. Unfortunately for me, I don't have any available pedal or lever space to split these changes and decided to keep this lever as is for now, clashes and all. Going to put this "inefficient" lever in my "can't have everything, get over it" drawer for now, and focus on other levers/pedals I still need to get better at.

I have been realizing more and more lately that having more different pedals and levers does not necessarily make one a better player...It just gives you more ways to play how you already do. If you're a sloppy noodler, you'll just get more different ways to noodle sloppily
Smile

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