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Topic: Eliminate cabinet drop |
Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 12:10 pm |
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E9/ A6 A B
F#
D#
G# +A
E
B ++C#
G# +A
F#
E
D -C#
B --A
Thoughts on this Copedent? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 12:19 pm
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I see what you're trying to do, but have you calculated whether the change in tension from the raises is exactly counterbalanced by the lowers? It's doubtful. And remember that the instrument is 3-dimensional, so there will be some torsion too.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 12:59 pm
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| Change in tension by lowering a full-tone is much less than for raising it a full-tone for any given string, regardless of its "no-change" tension. Then comes the fact that tension for the low B string is much lower than for the high B string to begin with, so the "balancing effect" by lowering the low B while raising the high B will be near zero. Might be an audible improvement on a PSG with very bad cabinet drop, but on most of todays PSGs the difference won't even be measureable. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 2:46 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Change in tension by lowering a full-tone is much less than for raising it a full-tone for any given string, regardless of its "no-change" tension. Then comes the fact that tension for the low B string is much lower than for the high B string to begin with, so the "balancing effect" by lowering the low B while raising the high B will be near zero. Might be an audible improvement on a PSG with very bad cabinet drop, but on most of todays PSGs the difference won't even be measureable. |
Wouldn't that be easy for the Paul to verify by manually de-tuning the low B and D strings (via the tuning pegs) while pressing the A&B pedals? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 4:04 pm
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| Tommy Mc wrote: |
| Wouldn't that be easy for the Paul to verify by manually de-tuning the low B and D strings (via the tuning pegs) while pressing the A&B pedals? |
Sure. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 4:12 pm
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Changing the tuning structure might be a viable solution...if the "cabinet drop" issue was just a problem of string tension, but that's not the case. Cabinet drop comes from a number of mechanical weaknesses. But in the end, it's mostly, as Georg said, a non-issue on modern guitars, as well as many old ones.
It's good that you're thinking, but keep in mind that changing your tuning drastically really isn't advisable, since it would alienate you from the majority of guitars, players, and learning materials out there. My suggestion is to learn to tune and play the instrument rather than re-engineer it.  |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 1 Jan 2020 4:48 pm
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The best remedy for cabinet drop is precise bar placement as dictated by the ears. You can overcome a lot with the left hand.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 7:12 pm
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| I've always thought you could eliminate cabinet drop completely by placing the raise/lower pivot right in the center of the top cabinet wood to maintain the same tension above an below the top when actuating pedals. You might need to do some gearing of some sort to get a good string height and mechanical advantage to make pedal pressure favorable. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 8:58 pm
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My cabinet drop lessened by some 70 percent when I stopped pressing the pedals when I got to the stop.
A LOT of cabinet drop is the pedals tugging on the, ummm, cabinet.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jimmie Hudson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 9:21 pm Correct
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
My cabinet drop lessened by some 70 percent when I stopped pressing the pedals when I got to the stop.
A LOT of cabinet drop is the pedals tugging on the, ummm, cabinet. |
Finally the correct answer to what causes Cabinet Drop. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 11:38 pm Eleminate cabinet drop.
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Look at the pedals on any steel guitar. Most have around a 4 to 1 mechanical advantage on the pedals. (From pedal pivot point to pedal rod attachment 1" then pedal extends about 4 inches to the edge of the pedal pad area.)
for every 5 lb. pressure put on the pedal in theory there is 20 lb. on the pedal bar pulling up and 20lb. on the guitar body pulling down. Once the pedal hits the stop on the guitar body, Now all the pressure from pulling or lowering the strings are now pulling on the body of the guitar. And now cabinet drop.
There is a picture on the forum a couple years ago of a steel that had 5 legs, One in the middle of the body and pedal board. It would be interesting to see if that guitar has cabinet drop.
When it comes to cabinet drop I have always said. "When a steel guitar is built with a cast iron frame that extends down the front and ends, And the pedals are attached to this frame we will have no cabinet drop problem." Cast iron weighing 491.49 lb. per cubic foot, The steel guitar will be sitting on the stage by the piano, Just bring your bar and picks sit down tune it up and play. When something is built to be portable you have to lighten it till it is no longer fully structurally stable. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Jan 2020 11:49 pm Re: Correct
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| Jimmie Hudson wrote: |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
My cabinet drop lessened by some 70 percent when I stopped pressing the pedals when I got to the stop.
A LOT of cabinet drop is the pedals tugging on the, ummm, cabinet. |
Finally the correct answer to what causes Cabinet Drop. |
Right; some PSGs are that structurally weak. Others don't react to pedal pressure in itself, but still detune some when overall string tension is altered. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 6:32 am
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| I suspect that cabinet drop is an incremental combination of several factors, varying from instrument to instrument. If somebody wanted to determine how much the pedals were contributing to cabinet drop on their guitar, I would think they could back the tuning nuts off until the pedals were no longer raising the strings. Measure cabinet drop with the pedals depressed but not pulling strings and compare that to when the pull rods are connected normally. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 6:32 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| It's mostly a non-issue on modern guitars, as well as many old ones. |
I have owned a 60s D10 and a homebuild (both very solidly constructed), and now a modern Williams and an Excel (both chosen for their light weight), and I have no experience of this problem at all.
Actual cabinet drop is only one factor that may contribute to detuning when it does occur - there are many parts under variable stress.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 8:28 am
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| If tuning everything straight up - know that you can compensate (average) cabinet drop by a revised but thoughtful tuning protocol. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 9:39 am
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The best way to eliminate cabinet drop is to throw away your electronic tuner. 
Erv |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 11:43 am
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| Most PSGs don't have enough CD to be concerned. I've tried a couple though that i found had enough i was always dicking with tuning - bad distraction. It's kinda like denying climate change. You don't think it exists till your house floods for the 1st time in 50 years. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 2:24 pm
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| Tommy Mc wrote: |
| I suspect that cabinet drop is an incremental combination of several factors, varying from instrument to instrument. If somebody wanted to determine how much the pedals were contributing to cabinet drop on their guitar, I would think they could back the tuning nuts off until the pedals were no longer raising the strings. Measure cabinet drop with the pedals depressed but not pulling strings and compare that to when the pull rods are connected normally. |
A easier way would be to just push the changer fingers with a screwdriver instead of using the pedal.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 3:09 pm
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| The best remedy for cabinet drop is precise bar placement as dictated by the ears. You can overcome a lot with the left hand. |
All musical instruments need a little help to play in tune* - PSG is no different. The audience doesn't have tuning meters, just ears.
[*except keyboards, which are beyond help]
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 3:15 pm Cabinet drop.
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| It would be interesting to have the stops on the pedal bar, instead of in the cabinet, for those trying to reach zero CD......just a thought.............Pat. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 3 Jan 2020 4:38 pm
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Wouldn't sound like a honky tonk (or symphony) if everyone was perfectly in tune anyways.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 Jan 2020 7:49 am Re: Cabinet drop.
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| Pat Chong wrote: |
| It would be interesting to have the stops on the pedal bar, instead of in the cabinet, for those trying to reach zero CD......just a thought.............Pat. |
That would just move the problem from the cabinet to the pedalboard. Like the bodies, the pedalboards also flex under tension. Pushing two pedals instead of just one would double the amount of flex, hence doubling the amount of detuning caused by that flex.
I've played guitars that the owners said had excess body-drop. And when I played them, the amount of drop on the tuner was considerable less. There's no doubt in my mind that too much foot pressure is one significant cause of the problem...though not the only cause. |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2020 10:11 am
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| You're right, I had not considered the pedal board flexing, too. So it would flex in the board or the cabinet, problem not solved. As you (and Lane) mentioned, too much foot pressure might be the first consideration to detuning.........Pat. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2020 2:42 pm
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I firmly believe that changer axle flex is a likely culprit for cabinet drop, possibly not the only factor, though. Most 12-string guitars seem to experience more mid neck strings CD than 10-strings pedal steels.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2020 5:07 pm
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I believe the axel dose give on some steels but on a Sho Bud the axel is supported between each changer finger.
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Last edited by Johnie King on 4 Jan 2020 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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