D-10 vs U-12

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

i had been thnking of buying a D-10 but today i had the chance to play a U-12
i really liked the U-12 but have not played a D-10 as of yet .other than the weight can some of you that have played both give me the pros and cons of each

thanks

calvin

Dave Van Allen · From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

Calvin, If you use the search function on the forum You will find this topic has been well covered... try a search with U-12 or universal in the subject field...
or your topic line D-10 vs U-12....

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

hey thanks

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I'm a S-12U player. Played D-10's for years and years though. Jeff Newman and Cowboy Eddie Long were playing S-12U's when I met them. It's all there. E9th and C6th stuff. I think if someone's familiar with the C6th neck, then the S-12U will probably be simple to figure out and play. Getting back to JN & CEL, I played steel shows with them here in Mississippi and I would actually sit and watch these guys play everything on 12 strings and then they would laugh about how easy it was. To me, the biggest difference I see in the D-10's and S-12's is in the feel. The S-12U to me, doesn't have that certain feel that a D-10 does. But I don't play for comfort like I used to. Nowadays, playing is business. The S-12U works for me. Lightweight, easy to move around w/flight case, plus I've got another one ordered from CARTER, so I can switch guitars around when I need to change strings,etc.

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

thanks for resopnding, when i played the
U-12 it had a good feel to it but on the other hand i have always loved the looks of a D-10 but have never even sat down at one. i think my best bet would be to find one and play it to get a feel for it . but i'm not sure how hard it will be to find one in my area . so that might not be an option. i think what i need is opinions on the feel of one vs the other

calvin

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

This answer will be no help at all, but,,,,,, I used to get the snaps from my fancy western shirts caught in the strings of the C6th neck all the time! I switched to a Kline U-12. Not because of the shirt sleeve problem, but because the Kline is an awesome guitar, and I wanted the extra low range in the E9th mode. Really helped in situations where some bottom was needed in a small band. But I soon came to think of it as not one neck with two tunings,but as one neck with a lot of stuff available.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

It's about time someone asked this question...

Sherman Willden · From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA

Calvin;

My name is Sherman Willden and I live in Colorado Springs. I have a Carter S12 7x5 that I haven't learned to play yet but I am using the courses listed below I like the E9/B6 S12 for the closer finger grips. Tabbed strings 9 and 10 reside at the same place. In the B6th on my S12 pedal 4 is what pedal 8 is on C6th and I can bounce back and forth between pedals 5 and 4 for closer footwork.

With the Jeff Newman CD course I find holding the E to Eb lever in all the time tiresome. I have to go to E9th for awhile to let my leg rest. It seems that Joe Wright mixes in all the levers more than Jeff Newman and thus doesn't rely on the E - Eb lever as much. Joe Wright mixes it up more. My E to Eb lever is on my RKR.

- Jeff Newman
- - The Universal E9B6 Course Book 1 and Cd
- - E9B6 Universal Introductory Video
- Joe Wright
- - DVD #5 which includes the following related E9B6 videos
- - - - Video #9
- - - - Video #10
- - - - Video #5

Sherman L. Willden

[This message was edited by Sherman Willden on 06 February 2006 at 06:24 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Sherman (and all)
The solution I found to the knee fatigue problem you mention is to examine the C6 tuning and determine the most often used change. I believe it is what is usually on P6. The I IV relationship of C6 and F9 (B6 and E9 on the universal) is a signature sound of the tuning and a frequently used change. In addition, it is the conversion to / from E9 and B6, looking at it from the 'two tunings' perspective.

Putting E to D -- string 8 only -- on a lever on the opposite knee from your E to D# will allow you to
* rest the other knee
* get the D usually on string 9 of 10 string E9 AND
* get the P6 function from C6 by letting off your E to D# lever while lowering 8 to D -- so 8 goes down and 4 returns to E giving you the identical change, 1/2 step lower, than the C6 Pedal 6 change.

I've been using this change ever since I started playing a U-12 in the mid 70's and IT WORKS. It also eliminates the need to use both feet on the pedals to get P5 + P7 combination (and other combinations as well).

It is a multi-purpose solution that works very well for me and others. It is not part of Jeff Newman or Joe Wright's setup, so that is probably one reason why few U-12 players use it. Their loss, in my book.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

hey thanks i'm learning a lot on this thread , are there any problems that come with learning the C-6 on a d-10 or may be a better way to ask is: which would be an easier transition from my s-10

calvin

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

A D-10 player will tell you to go with a D-10. A universal player will tell you to go with a single 12.

I feel that a S-12 is much easier to understand the sixth tuning on since the sixth tuning key (B) is related to the ninth tuning (E), unlike C6 and E9. I've found that a lot of people have learned a lot of C6 without really thinking about what they are doing or analyzing the changes and chords. A C6 player I learned a lot from years ago had NO CLUE what chords he was playing but played like he knew what he was doing. In a manner of speaking, he did -- he knew what it was supposed to SOUND like, but he had no clue WHY it sounded that way and didn't really care to. I find that universal players who play a lot of sixth style have looked at the changes and realize that C6 (or B6) is JUST A POSITION OF E9 and E9 is JUST A POSITION OF C6 (B6). Many D-10 players don't explore the similarities -- only the differences.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David Doggett · Posted 5 Feb 2006 3:05 pm

I agree with everything Larry said. I have a setup similar to his. The Jeff Newman setup didn't work for me. D10 players will complain about the 10% of things on each neck that they can't get on a uni. But I see it as putting the 90% of each neck on a single big neck for 180% that's available all the time. Plus, you get some things, like the low strings for E9 and high ones for B6, that are not on a D10. You can play country all night on an S10. But, for rock and blues, I couldn't live without my uni.

Sherman Willden · From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA

Bobbe Seymour has spoken

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

historically though, D10 players move to a U12 and know why they are doing it..they have already placed the value of the U12 in there own minds.

Calvin, keep in mind, a few weeks back you started a thread about the availability of teaching materials ..and the lack thereof...

If you cross over to the the U12 you will learn that the amount of teaching materials available for the U12 is NOT in abundance..actually way less than that...

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

why does life have to be soooo complicated

calvin

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Bobbe Seymour's weekly 'newsgram', today, addressed U-12 vs D-10 right off the bat. His vote is with a D-10, and challenged, that he had at least 10 reasons why. Just ask him, he emphasized.

I play a U-12 Williams 8 x 5, and have not,
as yet, asked Bobbe, WHY?

I actually approach the U-12 more in a manner
of a combined tuning. I understand E9 more than I do C6, so I definitely lean towards an E9 style of playing. But I can mix it up.

I'd be curious to know what Bobbe's 10 anti-Uni reasons are. But then again, I'm happy enough with my U-12, and probably would rather NOT know.

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 06 February 2006 at 05:15 PM.]

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

one of my main concerns is this; after going thru 3 pedal steels the only one that ever felt right ( or maybe fit me might be a better term ) was my Zum and i don't want to buy something thats not going to feel right. in the end i think the only way to resolve this problem is going to be to drive however far it takes, sit and play a couple of each before deciding , when i played the U-12 it felt like i had been playing it for years, no superises. if i find a D-12 like that i am going to be very torn between the two

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

As someone who has gone through a lot of steels in the fairly few short years since I started playing steel, I wish I had been more patient before jumping on new steels. I've done a lot of long-distance wheeling and dealing to get into what I have now because, well, steels aren't exactly household commodities around here in Central PA, to say the least. But I can't tell you how much trouble not having the right steel was for quite a while with me.

I have been playing a universal the last year, and right now am playing a Zum U12 8+5 that I love. I find the universal approach easier to get my brain around, but maybe I'm just weird. For me, the strongest arguments against universal are:

1. The forced compromise of the "tampered" or nearly-just tuning between the E9 and B6 modes. I struggle with that, and still have trouble getting both modes to sound right. I play more E9, so I bias in that direction, but I still work on it.

2. The mechanics are more difficult on the universal, since there are more changes piled on many pedals and levers. This can make some of the pulls pretty stiff. A high-tech modern steel like the Zum (and I'm sure many others like Carter, MSA Millenium, Fessy, Mullen, etc.) helps this, I think.

But otherwise, I resonate with what David Doggett and Larry Bell said on this. I have trouble doing gigs with an S-10 now, since my bandmates expect me to whip out some blues/slide licks on the low strings, and the universal makes that easy.

I'll be honest, if I really develop my 6th mode skills, I may consider a D-12/10 - with the front 12-string neck in ext E9 and the back 10-string neck in C6. That would get me everything. But for right now, I prefer universal to learn 6th on. BTW, my Zum has a E-to-Eb lever lock, which I don't use right now, but could if I wanted to focus on B6 more.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I get the feeling that pedal steel is going to be moving more and more to universal.

Whether true or not, Dallas will be a great place to play lots of steels and try and get a good fit. I hope to be there doing the same.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

If you want the definitive word on universal

verses D-10, you need to read the latest

epistle from Bobbe Seymour!

Erv

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

yeah right

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

I certainly hope the answer is not that one has to own one of each...

There goes my hopes for that triple neck Zum.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 07 February 2006 at 09:36 AM.]

Sidney Malone · From: Buna, TX

Well, since no one else has done it...... I suggest you read http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm by the true master of the 12 string!

From my own experience....I started on an S-10 just as you. When I was trying to make the decision to go to S-12 or D-10, I did as you and tried out both.

The D-10 seemed very awkward to me, because I wasn't used to the C6 neck being there. I'm sure if I had started on a D-10, I would have never known any different, but I didn't, so it was a major hinderance for me....especially being a beginner, at the time. Learning a new tuning didn't appeal to me either so it had 2 strikes right off the bat.

The SU-12 was much more what I was used to, being a single neck. The extra 2 strings did require a little adjustment.....maybe a month or 2 at the most. The B6 was just an addition to the E9 and I now see it as one tuning. I honestly don't ever think of it as E9 or B6. It's just a steel guitar with way more options than I'll ever use! So, the SU-12 is the tuning that works best for me, mentally & physically.

If I had it to do again, the only thing I would do differently is start on a SU-12. That's just my opinion and this subject will be debated from now on........

I would suggest that you try both S-12 & D-10 and consider the physical as well as mental aspect of playing each. Take your time and consider all the advice you get from both sides.

Ultimatly, I believe that both tunings are capable of far more than we can physically get out of them. This puts the limiting factor on ourselves and not the instrument.

My last opinion on this is that I don't think there's a wrong answer on which is the best. That's a personal choice that you have to make and when you decide which one fits you best, mentally & physically, then you will have made the right decision.

Good Luck!!

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MSA Millennium S-12U
Walker Stereo Steel
Hilton Pedal

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I think the D10 crowd has some really good arguments, but I don't like the limited range of the ten string E9. (BTW, I play a Universal and I really do miss the ninth string D.) My next guitar will almost definitely be a D12.

-Travis

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