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Topic: Tape Delay vs Analog Delay |
Charley Paul
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2019 8:37 am |
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Is there anybody that can comment on the utility of tape delay vs analog delay on psg?
I have always been a lover of analog delays. I use a Chase Bliss Tonal Recall analog delay on my psg effects board. I really like it, but have recently also really wanted to try a tape delay style pedal like the Strymon El Capistan.
I’m curious if anybody uses the El Cap for psg and can talk about the sound?
I am very familiar with the difference in tone between these two types of delay pedals, but I’m really curious about how people feel about using them live, in a band mix? Preferences, pros, cons, etc.
Opinions sought! |
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Karen Sarkisian
From:
Boston, MA, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2019 9:34 am
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I love analog delay but find it a little muddy for PSG. i often use a wampler faux analog echo which is digital but very warm, and also use an el capistan. The El Cap is the most versatile of the 3 and sounds great especially for slower tempo tunes. Its very rich sounding and definitely a bigger sound than the analog delays. I dont think I would sell any of my delays, I'm quite happy with all three of them...I often bring two delays to a gig, the analog or faux analog for slapback and the el cap for slower tap tempo tunes.
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Emmons PP, Mullen G2 and Discovery |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 7:35 am
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Just to be clear, the Strymon El Capistan is NOT a tape delay.
There is NO TAPE involved.
It is actually a digital delay that has spared little expense in the design to emulate an old tape delay, with all of the quirks and characteristics you'd find if you compared multiple old tape delay units against each other.
You can read more about it, and hear demos, by doing an internet search. |
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Charley Paul
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 8:48 am
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| ajm wrote: |
Just to be clear, the Strymon El Capistan is NOT a tape delay.
There is NO TAPE involved.
It is actually a digital delay that has spared little expense in the design to emulate an old tape delay, with all of the quirks and characteristics you'd find if you compared multiple old tape delay units against each other.
You can read more about it, and hear demos, by doing an internet search. |
Thanks for the heads up! I was already aware of that, and own a few other Strymon pedals already.
I have previously toyed with the idea of getting a real tape echo. I almost bought a Fulltone Tube Tape Echo at one point, but ultimately decided that it would be quite the haul to gigs, and so I passed! |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 11:21 am
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| I have an Echoplex I’ve tried on my PSG, I didn’t like it. Plus replacement tapes are hard to find and expensive so I don’t like leaving it running because it degrades the tape and the repeats start sounding too “reggae dub†like after too much use and not very clean at all. |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 11:26 am
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| I have an Echoplex I’ve tried on my PSG, I didn’t like it. Plus replacement tapes are hard to find and expensive so I don’t like leaving it running because it degrades the tape and the repeats start sounding too “reggae dub†like after too much use and not very clean at all. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 1:04 am
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A real tape delay unit such as the Fulltone Tube Tape Echo has a beautiful fullness but to my ears conjures up a psychedelic vibe out of the the 60's. Also the exact brand of tape is important to get the sound right.
I'm 100% happy using an El Capistan. I use that between preamp out and the power amp in. It always delivers just the sound I want. It also has a great spring reverb emulation that you can add to the echo effect. But normally that gives too dense an effect signal for my tastes into a single amp.
The Nemesis Digital Delay also gives a very nice rendition of various analog and tape delays. But it's most beautiful mode, to my ears, is the Diffusion mode, which is kind of like the king of all delays. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 5:52 am
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I liked my El Capistan for a couple months. Then I started hearing the artifacts they add to the digital signal to sound analog. You know that little sample of a glitch sound and harmonic distortion stuff. Once I could hear it and predict it I had to dump the pedal. Real tape has a very different relationship with the sounds coming into it.
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Bob |
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Ed Pettersen
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 6:06 am
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I've tried a bunch of different delays. I dig the El Cap but eventually got frustrated with the artifacts (though it's quite good, don't get me wrong).
My favorite delays are the Analogman (you can look for the smaller AR20DL that pops up from time to time used that's half the price of the big box dual) or I also dig the 80 Tape In Limbo III which I own and love (hard to find but worth it...can also do crazy stuff).
There's a guy on YouTube that did a demo of Ry Cooder's 3 delay set up including the Crucial Audio Nugget delay which is vacuum tube + analog bucket brigade that sounds killer. HUGE price tag though.
The best value in tape delay that sounds amazing is the T-Rex Replicator Jr. I love that dang thing and the price ain't bad used. Real tape too.
Good luck!!!
_________________
Singer-songwriter, author, composer and full-time musician, ie: poor! <g> |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 6:51 am
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| But the intensity of almost all of the artifacts on El Capistan can be changed. So you can customize just about every aspect of its sound to your liking. |
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Ed Pettersen
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 8:17 am
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
| But the intensity of almost all of the artifacts on El Capistan can be changed. So you can customize just about every aspect of its sound to your liking. |
Yeah, I dig. I did. Like I said, it's super cool but in the end I found better choices for me.
_________________
Singer-songwriter, author, composer and full-time musician, ie: poor! <g> |
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Hugo Knef
From:
Vallejo , California
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 10:28 am
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I bought the digitech obscura altered delay based on Brad Sarno’s recommendation.
4 diff delay types including tape. Stereo out. Affordable. Really liking it.
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Williams S10 moyo mini Quilter TT12 |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 11:23 am
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I have an issue with calling any digital delay a "tape delay". They aren't tape delays. Strymon calls the DSP involved with the El Capistan dTape. Good pedal, but not a tape delay, nor are they selling it as a true tape delay, or even a true bucket-brigade analog delay.
Without any consideration of cost or hassle, I absolutely prefer tape delays like the Echoplex or Roland Space Echo over anything else. I've had several of each over the years. Right now I have a nice, clean solid-state Echoplex, but it does not go to gigs with me. 20-25 years ago, repeated episodes of tape spilling out onto the chair I put it on convinced me they were just too much trouble for anything like daily gig use in a rockabilly band or other style that routinely needed delay. But IMO, nothing really sounds like them.
Beyond that, I find it hard to make categorical statements about either digital delays or true bucket-brigade analog delays. In general, I prefer the slightly softer repeat of most bucket-brigade delays, but not all of them. I've had Boss DM-2 pedals I just didn't care for at all. The repeats were too washed out. The DM-3 was better but still no cigar. The Ibanez AD-9 was pretty good. Electro Harmonix Deluxe Memoryman, good for ambient but not so much for slap. I've used lots of older digital delays, but not crazy about most of them, pretty sterile - nice precise slap but nothing like a tape delay. The expensive newer delays like the El-Cap and Belle Epoch and others are good, but I dunno, I'm just not sold. I've tried a bunch but was never convinced to pull the trigger for the amount of dough they cost.
There are a bunch of newer so-called "analog" delays based on the PT2399 chip, which is technically a "digital" delay in the sense that both time and amplitude are discretized, unlike a bucket-brigade which is discrete-time but analog-amplitude. But I find the PT2399 to be somewhere in between bucket-brigade and what I think are the more standard digital delay chips. I find the delayed copies to be warmer than the super-clean digital delay pedals I've tried but not as dark-sounding as the older bucket-brigades that I have usually tended to use. I believe my Mad Professor Deep Blue Delay and my cheap Rogue "Analog Delay" pedals are based on the PT2399, and lots of others are also. The Rogue would be perfect if it had a faster slap, but the minimum delay time is something like 40-50 ms, which isn't enough to double a fast tune. But I like it for basic pedal steel delay in the 100-300 ms range.
What I have settled on right now as an all-purpose delay is the DOD Rubberneck Delay, which is a true 4-bucket-brigade-chip delay pedal with a bunch of features. The repeats are coherent enough to synch in time with a song if I want, but still warm. It features tap-tempo, a 3-position tap-ratio switch for quarter, dotted-eighth, and eighth note tempos, modulation speed and depth controls, and a gain/tone control. Last Xmas, they were around $150, I got a pair for $99 each on a blowout from Pro Audio Star in Brooklyn. I think they're $200 now, but I expect they'll go on sale again.
Another that really sounds good to me is the Mystery Brain Echo 301, which obviously is meant to emulate an old Space Echo. At $365, I just haven't been able to pull the trigger. The guitarist I'm working with currently uses one, it does sound real nice. But I'm still happy with the Rubberneck, or if I don't need really fast or long delays, the little Rogues that I spent $25 apiece on.
I honestly think one needs to just try a bunch and see what you like. What appeals to me (or anybody else) may not appeal to you. |
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Ed Pettersen
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 11:34 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
I have an issue with calling any digital delay a "tape delay". They aren't tape delays. Strymon calls the DSP involved with the El Capistan dTape. Good pedal, but not a tape delay, nor are they selling it as a true tape delay, or even a true bucket-brigade analog delay.
Without any consideration of cost or hassle, I absolutely prefer tape delays like the Echoplex or Roland Space Echo over anything else. I've had several of each over the years. Right now I have a nice, clean solid-state Echoplex, but it does not go to gigs with me. 20-25 years ago, repeated episodes of tape spilling out onto the chair I put it on convinced me they were just too much trouble for anything like daily gig use in a rockabilly band or other style that routinely needed delay. But IMO, nothing really sounds like them.
Beyond that, I find it hard to make categorical statements about either digital delays or true bucket-brigade analog delays. In general, I prefer the slightly softer repeat of most bucket-brigade delays, but not all of them. I've had Boss DM-2 pedals I just didn't care for at all. The repeats were too washed out. The DM-3 was better but still no cigar. The Ibanez AD-9 was pretty good. Electro Harmonix Deluxe Memoryman, good for ambient but not so much for slap. I've used lots of older digital delays, but not crazy about most of them, pretty sterile - nice precise slap but nothing like a tape delay. The expensive newer delays like the El-Cap and Belle Epoch and others are good, but I dunno, I'm just not sold. I've tried a bunch but was never convinced to pull the trigger for the amount of dough they cost.
There are a bunch of newer so-called "analog" delays based on the PT2399 chip, which is technically a "digital" delay in the sense that both time and amplitude are discretized, unlike a bucket-brigade which is discrete-time but analog-amplitude. But I find the PT2399 to be somewhere in between bucket-brigade and what I think are the more standard digital delay chips. I find the delayed copies to be warmer than the super-clean digital delay pedals I've tried but not as dark-sounding as the older bucket-brigades that I have usually tended to use. I believe my Mad Professor Deep Blue Delay and my cheap Rogue "Analog Delay" pedals are based on the PT2399, and lots of others are also. The Rogue would be perfect if it had a faster slap, but the minimum delay time is something like 40-50 ms, which isn't enough to double a fast tune. But I like it for basic pedal steel delay in the 100-300 ms range.
What I have settled on right now as an all-purpose delay is the DOD Rubberneck Delay, which is a true 4-bucket-brigade-chip delay pedal with a bunch of features. The repeats are coherent enough to synch in time with a song if I want, but still warm. It features tap-tempo, a 3-position tap-ratio switch for quarter, dotted-eighth, and eighth note tempos, modulation speed and depth controls, and a gain/tone control. Last Xmas, they were around $150, I got a pair for $99 each on a blowout from Pro Audio Star in Brooklyn. I think they're $200 now, but I expect they'll go on sale again.
Another that really sounds good to me is the Mystery Brain Echo 301, which obviously is meant to emulate an old Space Echo. At $365, I just haven't been able to pull the trigger. The guitarist I'm working with currently uses one, it does sound real nice. But I'm still happy with the Rubberneck, or if I don't need really fast or long delays, the little Rogues that I spent $25 apiece on.
I honestly think one needs to just try a bunch and see what you like. What appeals to me (or anybody else) may not appeal to you. |
DOD Rubberneck is killer. Even at $200.
_________________
Singer-songwriter, author, composer and full-time musician, ie: poor! <g> |
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Mike Schwartzman
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 8:51 pm
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Last year I gave the Strymon Deco a try. Interesting pedal...one side is a tape echo emulation and the other side is tape saturation emulation. The echo side has some of the El Cap attributes, but not near as many choices, and the saturation side can be blended in with what they call "wobble". The tape saturation is pretty subtle and sounds like a boost with some compression. It sounds different than either distortion or overdrive...much cleaner than either. The "wobble" feature is actually a flanger . I really dig it with 6 string guitar...great rockabilly sounds and plenty more, but I haven't dialed in anything on PSG that does it for me with the Deco.
I'm currently using one of two analog delays for PSG. I guess I prefer the analog warmth as vs. digital. One is the Malekko (USA made in Washington State) Ekko 616. It sounds much like the MXR Carbon Comp and is about the same price point. The other is a Maxon AD 9 Pro which is a current take on the old Ibanez AD9.
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Emmons Push Pull, BMI, Session 400, Home of the Slimcaster Tele. |
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Marty Holmes
From:
Magnolia ,TX USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2019 1:56 pm
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Funny thing no one has mentioned the strymon brigadier pedal have one and its amazing
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 1 Oct 2019 10:52 pm
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| Marty Holmes wrote: |
Funny thing no one has mentioned the strymon brigadier pedal have one and its amazing
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It is neither tape nor analog |
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Marty Holmes
From:
Magnolia ,TX USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2019 1:55 pm
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Well then I guess a mxr carbon copy isn't analog either.  |
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Asa Brosius
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Posted 2 Oct 2019 2:54 pm
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To one of the OP's questions, if you use any delay in a full band live situation, as a 'tone thickener'(as psg players tend to) vs an obvious effect, I doubt the difference in delays will be obvious to the crowd. If used as an effect, i.e. The Edge's playing, most any delay pedal will get your point across. After that, it's about the sonic feel and the features/ ease of use.
I used an El Cap for awhile live- too much pedal for me, despite the good sounds I found. I liked the JHS Panther quite a bit, but it didn't do much for clean pedal steel in a country band. Now I use a diamond memory lane JR - great sound and features, very well made, easy to adust- and tc flashback mini for space noises/reverse/- because it's programmable, tiny and cheap. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Oct 2019 3:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| Well then I guess a mxr carbon copy isn't analog either. |
Carbon Copy is a true bucket-brigade delay, which means discrete-time but analog-voltage. But that's what people are talking about when they say "analog delay".
The Brigadier is a true digital delay. At its heart is a DSP (Digital Signal Processing) chip which samples both time and voltage and mathematically emulates the behavior of a bucket-brigade delay. They explain it here - https://www.strymon.net/documents/Strymon_dBucket_WhitePaper.pdf
Tavo Vega (TV the Wired Turtle on forums, who makes the Mystery Brain Echo 301 I mentioned in my first post) explains the distinctions between the various types of pedals here, including a bit about the PT2399 chip delays - http://www.gretsch-talk.com/threads/analog-delay-bbd-chip-challenge.33801/page-2
I'm not saying that there's anything bad about the modern high-end digital pedals that emulate bucket-brigade or tape delays. The premium ones sound good, and some of them have some significant advantages over other types, including handling high signal levels. I just haven't felt that I need to spend that much money on one because what I have works for me.
To me, the best tape delay emulator I've heard is the Mystery Brain Echo 301. It's damn close, sonically, to a tape delay, and has many other advantages over using one of those. |
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Charley Paul
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2019 4:20 pm
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Hi friends....
My El Capistan arrived today and I can say that I love it on the pedal steel guitar. It’s a bit different than the analog delay that I am used to, but I really like it. The repeats sit better in the mix. I am very happy that I have it.
Unfortunately no pedal steel gigs this week for me. But I have 3 next weekend (2 indoors, 1 outdoors). I’ll report back after those to let you know how the real test went! |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 3 Oct 2019 12:17 am
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| One little point: I find El Cap's memory is not especially good. About half the time I plug it into the rig either the time setting or the mix setting needs to be adjusted to get to the same sound as I used in a previous session. |
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Ed Pettersen
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2019 4:46 am
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No offense intended but the Mystery Brain 301 is far from the best analog tape delay emulator I've heard (and I listened to MANY clips last night). I would suggest doing a lot of homework before diving in and spending money on anything or any pedal frankly and seeing what works for you.
Don't throw money at a problem when it comes to gear. Believe me, I've learned, but if the Mystery Brain 301 works for you, great.
There are just tons of options so take your time and listen to as many as you can and if possible try in person. No-one knows what's in your head but you.
_________________
Singer-songwriter, author, composer and full-time musician, ie: poor! <g> |
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Mike Petryk
From:
Waterford NY USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2019 8:12 am
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Hi, I've been using the El Capistan with my steel, mandolin & guitar. I like to dial in a little "flanger" like warble sometimes. I use it with a Saturnworks favorite pedal. It's been very reliable.
Regards,
Mike |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 3 Oct 2019 8:56 am
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| Quote: |
| No offense intended but the Mystery Brain 301 is far from the best analog tape delay emulator I've heard (and I listened to MANY clips last night). I would suggest doing a lot of homework before diving in and spending money on anything or any pedal frankly and seeing what works for you... |
I assume this was directed at me. I don't own a MB 301 - as I said in my first post, the guitar player I'm working with has one and uses it. He and I are both Gretschy-kinda' rockabilly delay freaks, and we both really like it. I have borrowed it to use on multiple occasions, and I stand by my statement, based on my actual experience playing many, many delays over roughly 40 years and A/B'ing it and some others with my current Echoplex last winter. Did you actually play one or are you basing your conclusion on clips of someone else playing one? Not really important to me, I'm not shilling for anybody, but I think it's hard to really gauge a pedal like this without playing it fairly extensively. And I absolutely state that my conclusion is simply through the lens of what I personally prefer.
As I said above, I couldn't justify buying one because I'm completely satisfied with the Rubberneck I discussed above that was much more affordable. I have one on both my pedal steel board and my guitar board.
I totally agree that one should make decisions like this based upon actually trying and listening for oneself. In fact, I stated that in the last line of my first post, which you quoted earlier. There is no way I'd commit $300-400 to any delay without the ability to give it an extensive workout and comparison to other units. |
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