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Topic: Flexing necks and headstocks on lap steel guitars |
William Baker
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2019 5:50 pm |
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Hey all, new member here (today), and I have a big comment/question:
I’ve had a couple of import 6-string lap steels for a few years--although my playing hasn’t improved very much in that time, because I haven’t had the time to put into regular practice. One is an early SX that I had to spend considerable time on before it was playable (one example: it arrived with the bridge installed backwards…). The other is a Gretsch Electromatic that, for some reason, I can’t seem to get to sound and play as well as the “fixed†SX.
Now retired, I have all the time I need but an even more restricted budget. That’s life 
At this point, I’d like to try an 8-string, so I’ve been looking on this board and elsewhere online. My budget range is from $400 to $800, with the high end frankly being a stretch.
I read on this board (can’t find it now) where folks were concerned about the relatively thin headstock on the Vorson LT-230-8. Once that was pointed out, I could see the concern. In fact, a board member actually put pressure on the headstock end of their Vorson, and, sure enough, the guitar went “way sharpâ€, as he put it.
But, going back and looking at other guitars online as well as on my Gretsch, I found that many (most?) low-end to mid-range 8-string models have a fat (thick) body and neck, but beyond the nut, they’re cut so that the headstock area is much thinner (by half or more)—probably done this way to make it possible for standard tuners to be installed in a vertical peg position. When I checked my Gretsch, sure enough, pressure on the headstock audibly raised the pitch of a struck tone. (Of course, the players of regular 6-string electric guitars without whammy bars or tremolo bridges sometimes do this intentionally to get a tonal waver on a struck chord—usually at the end of a song.)
So here’s my question: I wonder if ALL the guitars in my first list below wouldn’t go sharp if downward pressure were applied at the headstock end while picking a string. All these lap steels are constructed with a thinned headstock as far as I can tell from product photos:
• Dillion 8-string (import)*
• Gold Tone 8-string (import)
• Gretsch 6-string only (import)
• Vorson LT-230-8, 8-string (import)
• Magnatone 6-string (vintage USA?)
• Supro 6-string (vintage USA?)
• Joe Morrell Pro Series 8-string (vertical tuning pegs) (USA)
• SX 8-string (import) Cut to be a thinner headstock, but still beefy thickness there. Yet, it too flexes some with pressure on the headstock end. Results in an audible increase in pitch.
• Asher (all models) (import)
• Fender FS-52
Guitars that look beefy enough to not flex (but, who knows?)
• Melbert 8-string (custom made in USA)
• MAC Steel Guitar 8-String (made in USA)
• Rogue 6-string RLS-1 (import)
• Joe Morrell Pro Series Maple 8-string (horizontal tuning pegs and thicker headstock too, but has a 6-string pickup) (USA)
• Vorson SL-100E Professional Straight (import)
*The only guitar in either list that has a regular guitar neck (ie., thin and rounded) and a regular guitar headstock (thin) is the Dillion 8-string. This model also has an adjustable tension bar in the neck. Hmmm. [This was corrected after my first post to be the Dillion and not Vorson. Sorry!]
To my question again:
Should we be concerned about thinner headstocks that flex when pressure is applied to them? Could that lead to a permanent “set†to the neck/headstock? Should that be a factor in buying an 8-or-more-string lap steel guitar?
Should we be concerned about makers putting regular guitar necks on lap steel guitars? Can they hold the tension of 8 or more strings without warping or taking a set? Is the presence of an adjustable tension rod in the neck of a lap steel guitar a red flag, or is the rod there simply to make up for the lack of wood?
And how does that compare to all the high end (Gibson Gretsch, Danelectro, etc.) round-neck resonator/resophonic guitars that have been on the market for many, many years? Do these guitars suffer from lots of neck problems compared to their square-neck equivalents?
Ok, I guess that’s more than one question! Sorry for the length of the post, but I think it’s a good and useful topic to discuss further.[/b]
Last edited by William Baker on 24 Sep 2019 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 2:13 am
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Look no further than #1 on your #2 list.
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 5:49 am
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It’s never been a problem with the guitars I’ve played. I don’t normally try to flex the neck.
_________________
Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Terry VunCannon
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 1:34 pm
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I have had no problem with my lap steels. A good strong slab of mahogany will hold up to any tuning I think.
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 9:30 pm
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| Looking at the vorson 230-8 online I'm not seeing a round neck or truss rod Perhaps the retailer has made a mistake in the listing. |
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Steven Pearce
From:
Port Orchard Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2019 10:02 am A vote for Melbert
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IMHO:
1. With enough pressure applied, most anything will flex. Just don’t stand on itðŸ˜
2. I LOVE my Melbert 8 string.
Compared to some here, I’m a relative newcomer, I’ve been trying to learn to
play for about 38 years. But this is the first time I’ve heard this concern.
I have a few on your A list and one on the B list. None of em bend the note.
My advice: have fun and play...
_________________
http://www.fentonstwang.com/fr_home.cfm |
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William Baker
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 3:48 am
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| Bill Groner wrote: |
| Look no further than #1 on your #2 list. |
Bill, do you own a Melbert? |
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William Baker
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 3:53 am
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| Jeff Highland wrote: |
| Looking at the vorson 230-8 online I'm not seeing a round neck or truss rod Perhaps the retailer has made a mistake in the listing. |
Jeff--
Yep, you're right. I mistakenly listed the Vorson in my first post, and just now corrected it to Dillion---another sleek & purty import, but with a "regular" rounded guitar neck/headstock with a two-way truss rod.
Bill |
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William Baker
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 4:09 am Re: A vote for Melbert
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| Steven Pearce wrote: |
IMHO:
1. With enough pressure applied, most anything will flex. Just don’t stand on itðŸ˜
2. I LOVE my Melbert 8 string.
Compared to some here, I’m a relative newcomer, I’ve been trying to learn to
play for about 38 years. But this is the first time I’ve heard this concern.
I have a few on your A list and one on the B list. None of em bend the note.
My advice: have fun and play...
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Steven--
Yes, I agree. It's the amount of flex that I guess could be a problem if the wood were thin enough and the string gauge heavy enough. I doubt most of the square-neck or slab type lap steels ever actually warp under string tension. But I just read a comment elsewhere on the board saying that if the neck takes a permanent set, just add some bumper feet on the bottom, if you play on a table or stand, so that the guitar will still sit level. Ha! Cracks me up, but it's true, I guess!
Still, it's hard for this old hillbilly to think about paying $500 or more for a lap steel that will probably warp with decent weight strings. The Dillion is the only one I see on the new market that might do that. Of course, that's the brand I was going to buy--based mostly on aesthetics/price.  But now I'm leaning toward a Melbert...
--Bill/William |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 4:18 am
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I have a cast aluminum Lectrolab lap steel from the thirties with a pretty significant warp along the length of the guitar--maybe 1/4 inch or so. Lectrolabs, though cast metal, are only an inch or so thick, and the metal itself is maybe 3/8 or so since the casting is hollowed out on the back. My guess is that it's been warped like this since the thirties--the warp doesn't hurt the playing a bit. If it were an acoustic guitar, it wouldn't be playable at all, but being what it is, it's stable and it's a great guitar.
Dave |
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Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 4:33 am
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| I would think it doesn't matter much, if at all, that the head flexes a bit when leaned on. As long as it remains stable and in equilibrium when tuned up, it should play fine. |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 6:33 am
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| William Baker wrote: |
| Bill Groner wrote: |
| Look no further than #1 on your #2 list. |
Bill, do you own a Melbert? |
I do not own a Melbert. I wouldn't mind having one though. I build all my own stuff. I have one wood one (curly maple) and 3 aluminum ones. I also have 2 maple ones in progress.
As far as Bang for the Buck goes, I don't think there is a better lap steel out there than a Melbert. Bob Allen is a stand up guy and a nice guy to deal with.
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 6:57 am
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The only time I would worry about headstock flex (which is what you were talking about) is if you had your lap steel hanging from you on a guitar strap that is attached at the headstock. Otherwise, who in their right mind is going to flex a headstock while they are playing?
_________________
Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 7:34 am
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In the world of lap steels, I would say that headstock flex or neck flex is very close to a non-issue - at least in 20+ years on this forum I haven't seen it listed as an issue. Cabinet drop on pedal steels, well, that's a whole 'other kettle of fish.
Anyway, more to the point is the quality of the woods, components and pickups. In my opinion, several of the vintage steels in the links below are a much better use of your $4-600 budget than the many low-end imports you listed. These vintage guitars, while not always looking shinny and new, generally play and sound better than their cheap modern brethren and their quality has lasted the test of time. You mentioned Magnatone and I personally feel these guitars are undervalued. They have very bright, rich-sounding pickups, decent tuners and play well. Sometimes the vintage plastic is deteriorating a bit, other times, it's in very good shape. I have a '52 Magnatone I enjoy a lot.
https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/products?q=lap+steel+guitar
https://www.elderly.com/products/guyatone-lap-steel?_pos=2&_sid=94d85869e&_ss=r
Ther red 19'63 Ric has a horseshoe pickup which many think is the best-sounding pickup ever designed for steel guitar. The FS-52 reissue has been widely panned. The BR-6 (named after Chicago design firm Barnes and Reineke) is not the most popular Gibson (EH-150 likely holds that slot) but they look and sound fine.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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William Baker
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 10:44 am
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| Bill Groner wrote: |
| William Baker wrote: |
| Bill Groner wrote: |
| Look no further than #1 on your #2 list. |
Bill, do you own a Melbert? |
I do not own a Melbert. I wouldn't mind having one though. I build all my own stuff. I have one wood one (curly maple) and 3 aluminum ones. I also have 2 maple ones in progress.
As far as Bang for the Buck goes, I don't think there is a better lap steel out there than a Melbert. Bob Allen is a stand up guy and a nice guy to deal with. |
I talked with Bob today, Bill, and he is a nice guy for sure. I think I'm going to get my order together and have a Melbert here about Christmas time. BTW, Bob's shop is only a couple of hours or less from me here in Knoxville, TN.
Huzzah for you rolling your own guitars! I'm tempted to try it, but I'm making way too many other things to start something new! At my age, I should be cutting down on projects! |
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William Baker
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 10:50 am
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| Michael Brebes wrote: |
| The only time I would worry about headstock flex (which is what you were talking about) is if you had your lap steel hanging from you on a guitar strap that is attached at the headstock. Otherwise, who in their right mind is going to flex a headstock while they are playing? |
Well, I dunno, Michael. I'm thinking about a performing technique where I strum a final chord and then lean over the headstock of my guitar and get a big 'ol tremolo effect... (kidding!!)
But I'd sure like to know if anyone on this board has bought a Dillion with the regular guitar neck/headstock; and if they've had any problems with warping. Just curious. |
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William Baker
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 11:06 am
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| Andy Volk wrote: |
In the world of lap steels, I would say that headstock flex or neck flex is very close to a non-issue - at least in 20+ years on this forum I haven't seen it listed as an issue. Cabinet drop on pedal steels, well, that's a whole 'other kettle of fish.
Anyway, more to the point is the quality of the woods, components and pickups. In my opinion, several of the vintage steels in the links below are a much better use of your $4-600 budget than the many low-end imports you listed. These vintage guitars, while not always looking shinny and new, generally play and sound better than their cheap modern brethren and their quality has lasted the test of time. You mentioned Magnatone and I personally feel these guitars are undervalued. They have very bright, rich-sounding pickups, decent tuners and play well. Sometimes the vintage plastic is deteriorating a bit, other times, it's in very good shape. I have a '52 Magnatone I enjoy a lot.
https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/products?q=lap+steel+guitar
https://www.elderly.com/products/guyatone-lap-steel?_pos=2&_sid=94d85869e&_ss=r
Ther red 19'63 Ric has a horseshoe pickup which many think is the best-sounding pickup ever designed for steel guitar. The FS-52 reissue has been widely panned. The BR-6 (named after Chicago design firm Barnes and Reineke) is not the most popular Gibson (EH-150 likely holds that slot) but they look and sound fine. |
Thanks Andy, I'm now realizing that it's not an issue with well made lap steels. Oh, I really like the vintage stuff from the 40s, 50s, 60s! Hey, that's when everything made, including people, were the best! Thanks for those two great links! It seems to be a little harder to find vintage 8-string models, but they're out there I'm sure. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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John Rockefeller
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2020 10:07 am
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My cheap (recording king) square neck dobro requires re-tuning every time I pick it up. I blame the headstock flex.
My Peavy powerslides (and even the really cheap rogue) stay in tune. I suspect that's due to the thick head/necks.
Lesson learned... (is it maybe the tuning machines?) |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2020 11:38 am
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| dont thin the head down. there is no need to do that. i make some laps. i never thin the headstock at all. i leave it as thick as possible. just rout out enough of a ledge for the tuners. thats all you need. |
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Glenn Wilde
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2020 6:36 pm
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Getcha a old Fender guitar.
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