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Topic: Who determines the steel intros,fills and breaks in sessions |
Gary Hoetker
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2019 8:27 am |
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| And How much improvisation is allowed especially the fills? To me it's a vastly underrated skill and missed very much today. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 21 Sep 2019 8:40 am
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The "producer" has the final say.
h
_________________
Howard Parker
03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
Listowner Resoguit-L |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 21 Sep 2019 9:23 am
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And it's anybody's guess who is the really the producer.
It may say Don Law on the LP jacket, when Grady Martin is pretty much running the show.
In some cases, the artist is the de facto producer.
On the other hand, if you just stepped off a John Deere johnny-popper, you may not have any say other than "here's how the song goes". And then go sit in the corner while the more talented musicians come up with something--while the clock ticks and the so-called producer wrings his hands at the spiraling cost. |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 21 Sep 2019 9:55 am Pecking order
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1 The producer
2 The Artist
3 The session leader
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
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Pete Finney
From:
Nashville Tn.
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Posted 21 Sep 2019 4:12 pm
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Some good answers here for sure, but aren't you all leaving somebody pretty important out?
The actual steel player on the session!
After some combination of producer, session leader, and artist have sketched out which instrument is going to play where, it's the actual player that more often than not is going to come up with what they play (if called for) for the intro and fills etc. That seems like a big part of the original question. Another part of the question was specifically about fills, and in my experience what to play is almost always up to the player, though they might get feedback suggesting different approaches after early run-throughs or takes. And that is definitely about improvisation.
And in my experience these days, any of the musicians on a session might typically contribute ideas for the basic layout to a track. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 2:58 am
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| Gary Hoetker wrote: |
| And How much improvisation is allowed especially the fills? To me it's a vastly underrated skill and missed very much today. |
because its about the song and the singing artist, not the instrumental solo's. Reflecting back, there are many records where the solos and fills don't fit the song or the singer, too much playing, too much speed picking or whatever.
BALANCE
This is a wide open question, every session can be different. Of the sessions I've done , the artist wasn't even present, so it was the producer who already had a preconceived notion as to what he wanted on the tracks. In many cases, the artist doesn't know squat about arranging, producing, what fills go where etc, not everyone is Vince Gill or Brad Paisley ! So they hire Brent Mason who typically has a couple duties, musician and arranger and perhaps session leader.
The Steel player on the session is pretty much following a SET arrangement. As good as they may be , they are expected to play something that FITS the song. Something that compliments . So if they can , they do, if they can't then they may call in another player ! Sessions are not democracies , its not wide open "do what you want " The clock is ticking. Keep this in mind, great players such as Paul, Mike , Tommy etc... are called in because they are not just great Steel players , they are great musicians as well. They HEAR what the producers are asking for and can actually do it. They can take whats in the producers mind and transfer it to their instrument. Which at the end of the day is the hardest part of a session.
remember, a song is a "PAINTING" everything must fit the grand plan. Only one person is privy to the grand plan.
Now obviously if a BAND is recording , they will track what they rehearse as a band , that's not the same as being called in for a session. Two totally different and unrelated worlds.
I recall watching a Steely Dan documentary , Fagan had maybe 12 different "great "guitar players come in and play a solo on a song, I think it was Josie, he said they are all great players but not for this song. It wasn't about the artist, it was about what his expectations were for the big picture. And the end result was exactly right " iconic".
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 22 Sep 2019 3:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 3:16 am
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I once asked Hal Rugg how he could go from session to session on any given day and not play some lick that he heard at the beginning of the day repeatedly. He told me that he keyed into the melody and that would determine what direction he would go in.
In my Nashville days, a typical session would go this way. Artist would play song on guitar or the musicians would listen to a demo.
The leader would normally setup the arrangement of who was to play where (intro, turnaround, fills, etc).
The producer was the approval stamp of what the musicians did. The artist did have some say so of the tune but it happened during the arrangement time.
One of my favorite stories about this involved Weldon who was a great player and very laid back person. The producer was not happy with some intro that Weldon was playing and probably asked him 10 to 15 times to play something different or go in this or that direction. Weldon finally got frustrated and came into the control room and looked at the producer and gave him his bar and said, "Why don't you just play what you want me to do?" That was the last time that producer asked him to do multiple takes.
These studio musicians were the best and some of the best records done in that era were totally put together by the band.
_________________
Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 5:23 am
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while we all would agree that Weldon was a massive talent, but somehow as I read that story above I can't help thinking to myself, if that is a true story,arguing or calling out a
producer in a session would be a fast way to end a career !
While sure that producer would never do that to him ever again but maybe that producer would never HIRE that player ever again either !
Kinda like calling out you Boss at the daily meeting , his or her response," Don't bother coming in tomorrow ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 5:38 am
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Tony
You rattled some of the cobwebs in my head and I feel that I should clarify one point of the story. Weldon did not come into the control room but did hold up his bar and say to the producer why don't you come out here and play me what you want. Your points about calling out a producer are the same even in this scenario.
I do not remember the session or who the producer was as we had a lot of independent guys come through the studio. It could have been one of those guys who was doing a one time deal. And in most of those cases, we actually hired the musicians if the producer did not ask for a specific player.
Where is the time machine when you need it? 
_________________
Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 7:26 am
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Mark its possible it was done in FUN as well, if it was done at all.
Years back I was doing a multiple sessions for MUZAK, most of the sessions went well and were really fun and easy. But one session I just didn't have any music in my head . I remember the producer/engineer kept saying , come on man give us your stuff ! They were asking for my stuff ! I kept saying I'm trying, everyone was laughing, then the engineer said, ok you got one more chance than I'm coming out there and playing the Steel. I said " why wait, come out now " !
Of course the next take was spot on, it wasn't even difficult stuff just regular, but my concentration was somewhere else.
stuff happens ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 3:00 pm
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A friend of mine was at a master session on one of the hot artists back in the day. The famous Jimmy Bowen was the producer. He said the A Team musicians started working on an arrangement, Bowen just left and came back after a while and said “you boys got me a hit yet?†His contribution was minimal. Having read Bowen’s book, I am a bit surprised...
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Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
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Pete Bailey
From:
Seattle, WA
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Posted 22 Sep 2019 3:41 pm
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| I can't help thinking to myself, if that is a true story, arguing or calling out a producer in a session would be a fast way to end a career ! |
There is a proper time and place for this kind of high-stakes retorting.
I assume that, as a long-time session pro, Mr. Rugg had calculated the studio politics to a T before unholstering and taking his shot. 
If you have not already heard William Shatner doing exactly this at exactly the right time to a hapless voiceover producer, take 4 minutes and enjoy one of the most brutally polite takedowns in commercial history.
Youtube : William Shatner In The Voiceover Studio |
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Bruce Bouton
From:
Nash. Tn USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2019 5:49 pm
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What Pete said. All producers are different. They hire the musicians for what they can bring to the table. I was rarely told what to play , just pointed in the right direction.
The steely Dan song that was referenced was Peg.
Josie was cut in two hours with a session band and Dean Parks played the track. he was too busy to come back for the solo so they got Larry Carlton and Walter becker to do it.
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www.brucebouton.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 23 Sep 2019 11:26 pm
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| Bruce Bouton wrote: |
The steely Dan song that was referenced was Peg.
Josie was cut in two hours with a session band and Dean Parks played the track. he was too busy to come back for the solo so they got Larry Carlton and Walter becker to do it. |
Ahh yes, Peg, thx for the correction...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 4:16 am
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I assume that, as a long-time session pro, Mr. Rugg had calculated the studio politics to a T before unholstering and taking his shot.
Actually Pete, it was Weldon Myrick not Hal who asked the producer to come out and play what he wanted.
_________________
Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 4:57 am
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One of my favorite producers, John Boylan, used to say “the producer is always, or at least usually, partially right...â€
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 6:03 am
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In my experience there doesn’t seem to be any rules and you never know what the artist or producer will want or what there process is. It seems like I usually get hired by people that like how I play. So I do what I do and try to find something that helps the tune. Sometimes its easy and fast other times its a struggle. Part of the job of a producer is to be able to deal with musicians and get a good performance from them. This might involve talking or might involve not talking. If you get a player thinking and stuck in his head it is hard to get a perfect performance from them. The phrasing/feel is the thing that goes first.
The main thing I keep in mind is that everyone is working together for the same goal.
_________________
Bob |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2019 6:38 am
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If Gary is asking what it's like now with easy-to-use digital recording tools, I was under the impression that for specialty instruments like steel guitar, that you'll be asked to play a bunch of your own ideas and then they'll keep what they like, mix and match it, and even cut+paste and move bits around. That's been my very limited experience.
Maybe what Gary is getting is why more 'signature' instrumental parts don't make it into the final mix? That's opening a can of worms, but my gut tells me it's due minimalism having become the dominant philosophy. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2019 9:52 am
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My experience is the same as Curt's. Play whatever you want and we'll turn it into something we like.
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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David Zornes
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 7:42 am
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On many of the sessions that I’ve done usually, the one who pays is the one who has the say. You’d be surprised at the studio engineers who don’t know beans about a steel guitar, much less how it is supposed to sound or work. On 90% of the vanity sessions I’ve been involved with, the singer tells me what they want. They may not know what run, lick or fill they want, but they’ll say, “Give me a Conway Twitty kick off, or a George Jones “feelâ€. Then I know that they want either a Hughey or Pete Drake style steel on that particular song.
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Oct 2019 1:30 am
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WOW..great read above, thanks John, !
Fagon said..."Erase it" and that was it, you never questioned it. I went back and listened to the PEG track this morning and to me the solo is so natural, so fitting, even simplistic over the changes. Its hard to imagine that a handful of iconic players ( including Robben Ford..wow) were placed in the "Thank YOU ... NEXT " group ! But this is where a great session is not only about great players but also a producer with a vision along with a session player that clearly understands the vision.
I reflect back on the Skaggs band with Bruce and Ray , They tracked two sessions ( well obviously many more) that I believe reset the reference (the reset button) for Guitars and Steel for Country Music moving forward, Bruce and Ray on HWy 40 and Ray on Heartbroke. I dare say that there wasn't a Tele picker or Steel picker breathing during that era who were not immediately influenced by both Bruce and Ray on those first two Skaggs LP sessions. I'm still carrying those licks in my pocket ! Great sessions, to my ears, the perfect compliment to the songs. Thx Bruce and if you see Ray, thank him for me !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2019 5:47 am
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Can someone enlighten me on what makes that solo, or even that song, so loved? I saw it yesterday on a list of top rock guitar solos on Rick Beato's youtube channel. I understand that it sounds slick and professional. I just don't get what makes it memorable. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Oct 2019 9:22 am
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Curt, thats like asking why does everyone love player X and so and so. Impossible to answer. Every song , every record cut is not for everyone to love, or even like.
Perhaps the point here with regard to PEG, is that it doesn't sound forced or canned, or difficult, it just fits over the chart and rhythm section. For many people, me included , it seems like it was a no brainer . Come in, sit down, tune up and just play the piece . Except that's not what happened. It took half dozen players with exceptional credentials to find the ONE that worked.
When I first heard this song when it came out I never gave it a 2nd thought about the session guitar player. I always just assumed it was Larry Carlton ! Till I read the liner notes.
Obviously being a Steely Dan fan helps !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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