Lick pedals

Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

Recently a famous steel guitarist here on the Forum refered to certain pedals as being a "lick pedal" What exactly does this mean and what are some examples of this? Thanks for any replys.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

A "lick pedal" is a pedal not primarily used to get a different chord. A good E9th example is the pedal that raises the first string a full tone (F#-G#). Since you've already got that same G# note on the 3rd string, it's giving you nothing that you don't already have, musically (except for the unison note). You usually use the pedal just for the "sound" of that move, and not to make a different chord.

For the most part, I guess you could term the standard "C" pedal a lick pedal, too.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 22 January 2006 at 05:31 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I think the "Franklin" pedal to be more of a lick pedal, also.
Erv

Franklin · Posted 22 Jan 2006 9:04 am

If licks are the form of study for players than all pedals are lick pedals. But if you view the instrument differently the two examples Donny and Erv gave along with every other possible change that can be put on an instrument are also examples of changes that go far beyond licks and enhance the scales, chords, and rhythm of the instrument.

It all depends on an individuals musical outlook. Pedals change the open tuning into different intervals which changes it into a new tuning. Some players only skim the surface finding the obvious licks while others research over years how to utilize the new harmonies and scales and rhythm capabilities any particular change offers.

Pedals enhance the possibility for playing ALL types of music. Some players choose only to learn about commercial licks heard with any particular change and IMO miss the boat with what any change offers. We all have to decide which changes suit our personal direction because of the limited room for adding levers and pedals.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 22 January 2006 at 09:15 AM.]

Franklin · Posted 22 Jan 2006 9:09 am

In the above post I am not slamming anyone who chooses to play licks only or can only see licks from any particular change. I was trying to point out that taking a different visual outlook towards what any pedal does musically will enhance your musicianship far beyond relying on licks as the vocabulary. Most players know the same licks, its the musicality between repeating lick cliches that gives them originality and style.

I never view any pedal as a lick pedal. I did for the first 5 years of my playing and then I started studying what this guitar does musically and that study continues today.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 22 January 2006 at 09:23 AM.]

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Paul; I think what you wrote in your last two postings here; is extremely informative and very important for all levels of players to take in.
I also believe that when a player only skims the surface of a particular change; he will consider it a "Lick" because of the limited options he now has; by not studying it further.
Paul you are a Wonderful teacher; and I love to hear the great thought-provoking posts that you offer up...thanks.
Ricky

Jason Schofield · Posted 22 Jan 2006 9:59 am

I've been playing standard 6 string guitar for over 20 years and have never been a lick player. I never learned the classic blues cliche' licks or stock jazz licks. Now that I'm taking up the steel all I hear about is licks, licks, licks.

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

I believe the nature of pedal steel in much popular music leads people to the 'lick' conception. In doing musical fills around the vocal line while other instruments take care of the rhythm and chords, players do tend to focus on such musical phrases.

However, once these phrases are informed by a solid background in the chords and voicings available on the instrument, they will only get more interesting and creative.

For example, most people probably added the 1st string F# to G# because they heard it used in a lick on a record, but only after using it for awhile might they realize the possibilities it gives them for other chords and scales.

F# to G# raise is not redundant. Raise your 3rd string and suddenly your G# disappears. WHERE IS YOUR PRECIOUS G# NOW???

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Erv and Donny nailed it, they put it it the way it is, there are about three knees that can give you every necessary chord possible, everything added after that is a "Lick Pedal, or lever". (Talkin' E9th only here, because it's chromatic)

I feel players should strive to create mechanical devices (pedals, knees) to expand the musical capibilities of the instrument, and not just the "Lick of the Day".

I'd rather learn "licks" musically, and not just add a lever to make a new funny sound and call it a "Lick". I started the F# to G# string pull in '74, but never used it as a lick, but rather as a major seventh with the pedals down, and as a melody note when needed, musically. I've taken it off recently, I've gotten where I can't stand hearing that "Lick" anymore. (I don't want to accidentally do it! Ha!)

Licks come and go, musical changes will stay forever. Lick levers come and go, good musical chord levers will stay forever!

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Jason Schofield, I so agree! Forget "licks" and play great music. Play music well enough, and that may be all the lick that's needed.
A "lick" is someting that is not a part of a song, but something pre-learned that is "inserted" into it.

So will usually be heard in many different songs.

How many times have you heard a novice steel player play the same "licks" in every song he/she knows? Or most.

Suprising how many times you have heard the same "licks" on records in the past 15 years. Different players, same licks, different songs, same licks. Go to a steel convention same licks.

Hey, whats the deal here???????

Not wishing to delute what Paul said in a former post, I understand his point and somewhat agree, but I have to explain a problem I continually see in the industry.
I also feel that Paul can and does exploit any change he puts on a steel guitar to the last degree. I appreciate his forward thinking.

Bobbe

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 22 January 2006 at 01:15 PM.]

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 22 January 2006 at 01:22 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Anyone who plays music paints from a musical palette that is called the chromatic scale (unless you play microtonal music and most of us don't). It consists of 12 different notes, usually started and ended on the same note, one octave apart. Think open E on the 4th string of E9 or 2nd string of C6. Each degree of the scale is one fret apart.

On the steel guitar that palette is presented to us in many different ways depending on the open tuning and pedal and knee lever changes that are on a particular instrument.

The chromatic scale can be sliced and diced and subdivided into many scales containing fewer notes than all possible chromatic notes. There are the 'church modes' that have been a part of the heritage of music of the western hemisphere from Medieval times until now. Those scales are like the 'do re mi fa sol la ti do' Major scale -- also called the Ionian mode. They all contain 7 different note names with an octave of the first note -- giving us 8 notes in the scale. Some, like diminished scales and whole tone scales have more or less notes than the diatonic 'church' modes but all have one thing in common: THEY ARE SUBSETS OF THE CHROMATIC SCALE.

If we take those scales and begin to create melodic fragments -- like perhaps 123 1234 2345 3456 . . . etc -- we will come up with IDEAS or MOTIFS.

If we take those ideas and formalize them into certain portions or configurations of the notes in the scale and motif, those could be thought of as LICKS. It's like a roadmap where we ALWAYS FOLLOW THE SAME PATH. Once you've followed that same path over and over you get very good at navigating that path, but it becomes BORING.

The musician who thinks in terms of licks is wearing a rut in the road. More interesting music can come from some of those paths less traveled.

A skilled player doesn't need anyone to tell him/her what notes sound good together or in succession. They just play them. They never run out of ideas because there is an ALMOST INFINITE NUMBER OF WAYS TO COMBINE AND STRING NOTES TOGETHER.

A student needs to be told what sounds good. Often they are not capable of determining this themselves. Some players never progress beyond this level. The LICK is as far as that player will progress. This player is deceived into thinking that improvising is just stringing licks together. There is more to it than that.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Robert Porri · From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA

I wonder if some differentiation should be made here when comparing "cliche licks" to original/creative and fresh sounding licks.

Bob P.

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

But don't you think the extreme physical nature of this instrument (relative to others) lends itself to favouring moves which have been worked out in advance ?
I think so. I have a feeling Paul Franklin will disagree with me - but I know alot more about being uncomfortable and incompetent on the instrument than he does.

-John

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Of course that's true, John.
There are certain ways of finding notes, scales, and patterns that just 'lay right' on a given tuning and pedal/lever setup.

My point was that looking at the flow of improvisation as a string of licks that you always string together the same way creates ruts and boredom.

Bob Hoffnar recently quoted Lloyd Green as saying that a steel player should strive to play a given passage in three different ways on the neck. That kind of thinking is what I'm getting at.

I think most competent players compose solos and that often includes drawing from something we're familiar with. A really great player will convince you that it's the first time he's played it.

And Bob, no, I think a lick is a lick. Once you've formalized it as such it has only one destination: a rut. One way of getting around that somewhat is to 'extend the lick' -- to turn it into a pattern or motif that can be used in a variety of ways. That's how I distinguish a lick from a pattern -- maybe it's just BS, but the concept is meaningful to me.

That all said, when I get into a playing situation and the tempo gets 'hairy' (as Mike Smith used to call it) I always fall back on patterns I know I can pull off. It's a fine line but if we yield totally to playing only what we've done over and over we're headed for a rut.

As you know from all your jazz experience, John, the bigger your bag of tricks the less the listener will realize you're recycling ideas. Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin have forgotten more than most of us will ever learn. That's one reason why their playing always sounds fresh and innovative.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 22 January 2006 at 03:07 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Larry Bell, extremely well put, wish I'd have said that. ( I was thinking it! Ha!)

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Is it just me, or is there a general tendency here to trivialze "licks"?

I'd consider both Pete Drake and Lloyd Green "masters" of coming up with new licks (though Lloyd is more of a melody player than Pete ever was). Between the two of them, they've given us thousands of memorable intros and turnarounds, and made a pretty good name for themselves... without playing any blistering or complex scales, and without a lot of fancy 5,6, and 7-note orchestra chords. Music comes in all forms, and some of it is just plain and simple, but beautiful nevertheless.

By all means, learn your scales and learn your chords. But don't forget to learn how to play some good licks, and come with some better ones of your own!

Shucks, you might get remembered if you do.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

hold on a minute there, hoss
Fer as I can tell you are the first one in this thread to mention blistering or complex scales OR fancy 5,6, and 7-note orchestra chords.

The reason, to me, that Lloyd Green is so great is that he's not tied to ONE lick. You don't like that one, then take THIS ONE.

I believe that Lloyd Green plays like Lloyd Green. OTHER PEOPLE play Lloyd Green LICKS. He's truly got so many of 'em that they aren't licks any more. They're reflections of the way his musical mind works to the betterment of the song.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Although I agree with everything that's been said, when I started learning the pedal steel all I concentrated on was "playing the melody of the song". I never considered anything else. The time I spent in Nashville, all I heard was "play licks" and "here is tne new lick that Weldon has on so and so's new recording", etc.

Doing backup, I tend to use mostly "licks" for backup fill and I purposely concentrate on not using any one lick over and over - as I hear some do (lead players the same way - I've worked with some that get hung up on a new lick and use it over and over all night). On a song break, I combine licks and melody.

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I think it works this way--You start out learning songs, tune, melodies---but songs. After a few "songs," you're ready to combine a little bit of this tune, and a little of that song, and come up with some "licks." After some licks, comes the introspective,"I wonder where THAT came from?" That brings us to notes. Songs, then licks, then notes. And since a pedal steel guitar is a machine, as well as a musical instrument (incidentally, an instrument capable of infinite microtones, but that's another thread), then changes are made by the mechanical goings-on underneath. So, to some, they're ALL "lick pedals," since that's as far as a lot of us will ever get. But to a Paul Franklin, Buddy Emmons, Doug Jernigan, or even a (gasp!!) BOBBE SEYMOUR, they're the means to complete a musical thought.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

As far as I can tell, Lloyd Green's copedant is 'lickless,' and the height of simplicity and economy. Apparently all his licks are played without lick pedals.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Wasn't the earliest most influential pedal added to the steel guitar used as a "lick pedal"?

When Bud Issacs played that lick on "Slowly" everyone had to be able to play THAT lick.

I think that anything you can add to the pedal steel that gives you something unique that is in addition to the standard fare set up is very cool whether it be a "lick" pedal or a chord pedal or whatever.

Billy Wilson · From: El Cerrito, California, USA

Thanks so much fellows for the replys. Seems to me that they're are no lick pedals but lick players. Any pedal or knee lever that gives you a note or notes that aren't there without it can advance one in a musical way. Or it could be used as an "effect"

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Boy, Billy, you put it right together

A lot of this is just semantics

Some people look at the F# to G# knee lever and all they can see is the unison lick with the 3rd string. Others see that there's a pedals down Ma7 chord that includes the root. Others see other stuff many players wouldn't even think of.

It's all in how you look at it. If licks is all you see, licks is all you'll get.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Guys, all I'm really getting at is that the term "lick" anymore is almost a dity word...

"Licks??? Ugh! I don't play any licks."

Well, we all know how true that one is!

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