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Topic: All My Steel Guitar Amps Have Become Horse & Buggy |
David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 9:56 am |
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I now have all the flexibility a multi-million dollar studio has to manipulate my sound in real time on stage with a PC vst hosting program called Cantabile. Please go to the website to learn more.
They say they are working on a Mac version but I use two computers anyhow. One is my steel preamp and real-time effects rack. The other is my recording DAW. Conventional guitar amplifiers are horse and buggy now and very limited with mid-range speakers that are honky sounding. All you need for live gigging is a laptop with a realtime VST host software, a USB interface with a preamp built in and a pair of small studio monitors on stands pointed in each ear on the bandstand. Reason's it beats a guitar amp is many. You get to hear all the effects in true stereo which is an amazing sound in itself plus you have at your fingertips all the sounds a multi-million dollar studio has on stage. Don't like a reverb? Use a different one for a different song. Just click, click and a whole new reverb is patched in instantly on stage. You can have a virtual rack in your computer 15 Roadies couldn't carry using hardware and conventional racks. That's where sound is headed. I can see the handwriting on the wall but it will take quite a while for everyone to catch on what they are missing. If you want a tube amp sound just use a tube vst plugin to get it. Want to use convolution reverb units, all the Lexicons available? It's all available on stage at your fingertips with a good laptop, soundcard and a pair of decent powered monitors. If you are playing a stadium just give the sound engineer a feed from your USB interface. He will get all the processing you have done to your signal. |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 10:33 am
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| Sounds pretty interesting... I would be more comfortable if this could be run with Linux. |
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Joseph Myers
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 10:52 am
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Uh...I'll stick with my vintage Jim Kelley FACS tube amp thank you,
I have used , at least in the 6 string guitar world, all the modelers, Kemper, Ax Efx etc at one time or another. Some are super nice and great sounding and do have great applications and uses,, but every time I go back to my tube amps I can feel the difference.
Perhaps this on is different?
Call me old fashion, but this boy's ridin this buggy into the sunset.
joe |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 11:31 am
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| Joseph Myers wrote: |
Uh...I'll stick with my vintage Jim Kelley FACS tube amp. every time I go back to my tube amps I can feel the difference.
Perhaps this on is different?
Call me old fashion, but this boy's ridin this buggy into the sunset.
joe |
Jim what you are hearing in tube amps is not voodoo or totem pole stuff. It's called harmonic distortion. Second and third harmonic distortion to be exact and there is plugins that can replicate harmonics. If you can see it on a scope you can make a computer plug in for it. Everyone so far has doubted this until I came to their home and set this system up and made a believer out of them. It doesn't hurt to be traditional but I was a professional recording engineer for 42 years and if I didn't stay on the cutting edge of technology I would find myself without a job. I just posted this for those desiring to step way beyond the limitations of a traditional amp and rack gear.
Yes I agree about the modeling amps. They all sound like crap to me. I think that's mainly because they don't know what they are doing. Their ears are not trained to listen. They rely on musicians to tell them if it sounds okay and they don't know how to tell them in words what they want. This that I am talking about is not modeling. It's basically building a new amplifier with each push of a button. You place the components in it you want to hear. Modeling amps you are stuck with what they gave you and I agree it's bad sound.
Last edited by David Mitchell on 26 Jun 2019 11:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 11:36 am
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Tomorrow I turn 60, and I plan on busting out my grumpy-old-fart act with a vengence from here on out. But my pre-existing condition (early-onset-old fartitude) compels me to chime in here. The last thing I want to be dealing with on stage is a laptop, tablet, or any other sort of computerized device. My ideal would be steel-volume pedal-amp. I'm not quite there, but I keep it as simple as I can. I'm up there to lose myself in the music, not in the gear.
Hah! This grumpy-old-man stage of life is gonna be a piece of cake. Off my damn lawn, punks!! |
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Brian Hollands
From:
Geneva, FL USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 11:40 am
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There's a Guitar Player interview with Stevie Ray Vaughn in which they ask him what his dream amp would be. He says "It would just have one knob with an arrow that said MORE".
_________________
'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 11:52 am
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Speakers and stands, and a laptop (which might crash at an inopportune time) may be okay for some. But for me, a combo amp (that I can carry in one hand) is still the way to go. I also don't have to worry about hauling big stands, running speaker wires across the stage, taping them down, or speakers getting knocked over. It takes me only two trips from the car; one with the amp and seat, and one with the guitar, and my equipment hauling is done. Add five minutes for setup, and I'm playing. If I want a different reverb, delay, or chorus than what's in my amp, it takes just 30 seconds to add a stomp-box. (I'm not a big fan of scrolling through hard to read menus.)
I've been to dozens of steel shows, and some of the best sounds I've heard came from a simple guitar/combo amp setup. But if you like the high-tech approach, and all that goes with it, more power to 'ya.  |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 12:03 pm
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| Donnie it's not for everyone. Heck I would have learned harmonica knowing what I know now but computers have graced the world's largest stages for many years now and for the price of a steel guitar tube amplifier I can buy about 16 good laptop PC's and have at least three loaded on standby ready to be up and running in less than 5 minutes should one crash. If you use a Peavy Profex you already have a computer processor on stage as with any other digital reverb. What you have to do is load only your music software in the computer and it will be stable as a rock. Don't load a bunch of programs in it that run in the background and start conflicting with each other. Don't get on the internet with it. I can't remember the last time I had a music software crash. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 12:04 pm
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So we would have to download or purchase and install the VST's that we need for reverb, delay, preamp, power amp, cab sim etc and they would process our guitar's input just like they do in the DAW?
This is a bit different than using for example a Fractal Axe-FX III which provides the same functions without the VST's.
Then are you saying that the VST's are more accurate at modeling the harmonic distortion, power supply sag, phase response etc than the Fractal Axe-FX? Or maybe the VST route is somehow more flexible or lower cost?
I like what you are proposing but wonder what the cost of truly stellar VST's would be for say reverb etal vs the cost of the Fractal unit. Both would be upgradable. The Axe-III supposedly comes very close to modeling all the characteristics of a tube amp including not only harmonics and power supply sag, but also response to different signal amplitudes and impulse responses. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 12:39 pm
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Greg, you can get anything thing you want with vst's. The sky is the limit. Many great ones I use are totally free. You build your rack with the plugins in the order you like because the order makes a difference. For instance with my computer I can use real EMT plate reverbs like they used at Bradley's Barn, Columbia and RCA Victor in the golden years of country. I can have real acoustic rooms that have been sampled using impulse responses. I got about anything in my computer that a multi-million dollar studio has and believe me they mix many hits on a computer using the same plugins. I do realize the capabilities will not ring a bell to someone that has only known guitar amps. I've been wanting a computer that will do this for 20 years while I was working as a sound engineer in some very expensive studios. I thought why can't I do this cool processing in real time and on a stage in front of a live audience. Up until now you either had to have a hardware driven ProTools rig starting at $50,000.00 and what a hassel to set up or use it after it was recorded in a post situation. Now I can have the big studio sound on stage. I'm a tech guy and I know some will fail to see the point and I understand. This is the coolest thing since microwaves and color TV's to me.
Here is a short brief video I made using my Cantabile virtual vst plugin rack. I not only used a computer for my amplifier but figured out how to record it all directly into my Moto Z cellphone and get studio sound with it too. It's on the verge of breaking up because I had the input a little too hot but I can get whatever sound you ever heard on a record with it live and on stage. Too cool!
https://youtu.be/XYdYUgzgkUE |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 12:57 pm
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
So we would have to download or purchase and install the VST's that we need for reverb, delay, preamp, power amp, cab sim etc and they would process our guitar's input just like they do in the DAW?
This is a bit different than using for example a Fractal Axe-FX III which provides the same functions without the VST's.
Then are you saying that the VST's are more accurate at modeling the harmonic distortion, power supply sag, phase response etc than the Fractal Axe-FX? Or maybe the VST route is somehow more flexible or lower cost?
I like what you are proposing but wonder what the cost of truly stellar VST's would be for say reverb etal vs the cost of the Fractal unit. Both would be upgradable. The Axe-III supposedly comes very close to modeling all the characteristics of a tube amp including not only harmonics and power supply sag, but also response to different signal amplitudes and impulse responses. |
Greg I have convolution reverbs for all the Lexicons units and everything else. Some of the hardware versions cost nearly $10,000.00 The big studio reverbs and I got them all free on the internet. They sound just like the hardware units because I have paid thousands for the hardware units myself. I'm telling you that you can have a state of the art studio on stage for less than the price of a steel guitar amp.
If anyone is interested I can help them getting setup and direct them to the awesome free plugins. You just need a laptop running at least Win 7 and the free Cantabile Lite program. That's it! Start loading your VST's in it. I must warn you that once you get the hang of it you might not come out of your bedroom for weeks and have bloodshot eyes looking for more and more plugins. Build as many racks as you like!😂 |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 1:01 pm
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Here is a little starter video on the program that will be used to host the VST's. It's free. Be sure and get the Lite version. The other versions are just demos of the pay versions and self destruct.
https://youtu.be/FvUL2rte-YY |
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Joseph Myers
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 1:21 pm
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David,
God I hate futzing with stuff like that live.
I am not in the dark about tech gear and I certainly know my way around studios digital and analog. . I've got quite a decent little rig here at home and have been doing this for 30 years.
If I wanted i could take my Antelope interface, plugs, and my laptop. Use vst's and the whole digital chain.
1. I don't like engineering like that when I play live.
2. I don't trust computers live.
maybe for a travel gig it would make more sense to me.
IDK, I just enjoy a verb or delay and my amp.
If I can't get it done with that, dozens of VST's and convoluted rooms are going to change it.
joe. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 1:33 pm
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Joseph, there is no engineering to it on the gig. You just turn the computer on and push the start button on Cantabile. You hit the rack of processors you want to open then start playing. The whole process on stage takes about 1 minute longer than waiting for a tube amp to warm up. You do all the engineering at home. You pick your plugins for rack#1 then place them in the order you want and adjust them to your liking then hit "Save Song" and title it rack#1. Then build 3 or 4 more racks like that and save them. Some of your racks might have stereo chorus running, others might have delay or a Urei LN1176 limiter or an LA-2a or an EMT plate reverbs. When you open a rack on stage it is already set and running. The engineering has already been done at home. It couldn't be any more simple. Your volume knob is on your USB soundcard.
Most players will never know what a steel can sound like through a $8,000.00 reverb unit. You can have one for free with this setup. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 1:53 pm
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https://www.dropbox.com/home/SIR%20Lexicon%20Impulses
I've already spent countless hours collecting all the famous Lexicon sounds for you. These are not from the cheap $300.00 hardware units. These impulse responses come from the expensive studio units. My gift to the steel forum. You will need the free program SIR reverb to run them. Then you will need Cantabile for a VST host on your computer desktop to run them in real time like a guitar amp with no latency or you can use them to mix in your DAW.
Who wouldn't want to have $12,000.00 Studio Lexicon sounds on their steel guitar?
I got AMS, Quantec, Eventide and many other top brands in impulse responses even real EMT 140 plates all free. EMT 250 digital reverbs. That was the $15,000.00 reverb. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 2:26 pm
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| So I can load these VST's into Reaper now? I got the free Ambience VST now and it's pretty good. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 2:57 pm
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Greg, Ambience is good but you will need to download the vst plugin SIR first. Place the .dll file in your Reaper vst plugin folder. Then download and place the Lexicon impulse files in another folder on your drive and name it something. Then when you open Reaper load the SIR plugin then choose and load a Lexicon file in it. Happy Reverberations!
In order to play them in real time like a real hardware effects unit you will also need Cantabile unless Reaper can play effects in real time. Not sure about that. |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 3:14 pm
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Hey David, first off, thanks for sharing! I was commenting just the other day that steel guitar players are not typically "early adopters" with technology. So you might have an uphill climb selling this idea!
As for your dropbox link - I think it needs a little more info for it to work? When I click on it, it takes me to MY dropbox and says that folder does not exist. I just started with dropbox - but maybe instead of copying the address from the bar, or something, you have to click on the file or folder and get a "shareable link" like with Google Drive?
I am about to do some home recording with my steel - first time in 5 years - the advantage of being retired! I have time for such! I'm not sure of the best way to tackle this - I use a Zoom R16 to record, but would like to experiment - I could use my computer for the VST's since it will then go to the Zoom. But if it needs a lot of gear to make it all work, well, I can record straight to the Zoom now, with or without a stomp box reverb, and then tweak it afterwards. My talents are not so good as a player, so don't need your level of recording tech to post on FB for my friends to tell me I suck! Haha! But I find it interesting! So consider this a long-form version of "following".
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 3:27 pm
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| Douglas, I'm sorry. I tried the shareable link but nothing happened. Not sure about Dropbox. I will upload them plus more on my Google Drive for a shareable link because I know that works. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 3:32 pm
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To everyone, Think of it this way. A computer IS an effects processor without the firmware (software).
Cantabile , the free software basically turns an ordinary computer into a high end effects processor and you choose the sounds in it without the use of a bulky DAW system. DAWs crash. You can buy a decent laptop for $75-$100.00 in a pawnshop with at least a 2.2 gig processor and load the world's best effects in it and use it instead of an antique like the Peavy Profex units. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Jun 2019 11:17 pm
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| It don't matter friends. Play through what feels comfortable to you. My first life and love is being a recording engineer. I have toted many Fender, Peavy, Webb and everything else amps to gigs but I was never satisfied with a one trick pony. If one amp, one sound meets your needs then congratulations, life is so much easier that way. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2019 3:57 am
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| David, please post a workable link to the VST's. I will put a steel loop into Reaper and try all the VST's there first. |
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George Seymour
From:
Notown, Vermont, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2019 4:55 am
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Very very intriguing
Small monitor speakers? I suspect that’s surprising good
I just recently purchased a pair of Bose SP1s for a bluegrass project pa and recently
Used one of them in a quick in out gig... couldn’t believe how good that little speaker sounded... look forward to hearing more about this
_________________
Old Emmons D-10's & Wrap Resound 65, Standel amps!
Old Gibson Mastertones |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2019 5:21 am
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| David Mitchell wrote: |
Joseph, there is no engineering to it on the gig. You just turn the computer on and push the start button on Cantabile. You hit the rack of processors you want to open then start playing. The whole process on stage takes about 1 minute longer than waiting for a tube amp to warm up. You do all the engineering at home. You pick your plugins for rack#1 then place them in the order you want and adjust them to your liking then hit "Save Song" and title it rack#1. Then build 3 or 4 more racks like that and save them. Some of your racks might have stereo chorus running, others might have delay or a Urei LN1176 limiter or an LA-2a or an EMT plate reverbs. When you open a rack on stage it is already set and running. The engineering has already been done at home. It couldn't be any more simple. Your volume knob is on your USB soundcard.
Most players will never know what a steel can sound like through a $8,000.00 reverb unit. You can have one for free with this setup. |
This sounds similar to changing what reverb you want on your Lexicon or Profex, or changing the amp modeling on a Kemper or Fractal.... David, were you talking about the Kemper or Fractal modelers as sounding bad?... I’d actually been considering one of those.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2019 5:22 am
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| David Mitchell wrote: |
https://www.dropbox.com/home/SIR%20Lexicon%20Impulses
I've already spent countless hours collecting all the famous Lexicon sounds for you. These are not from the cheap $300.00 hardware units. These impulse responses come from the expensive studio units. My gift to the steel forum. You will need the free program SIR reverb to run them. Then you will need Cantabile for a VST host on your computer desktop to run them in real time like a guitar amp with no latency or you can use them to mix in your DAW.
Who wouldn't want to have $12,000.00 Studio Lexicon sounds on their steel guitar?
I got AMS, Quantec, Eventide and many other top brands in impulse responses even real EMT 140 plates all free. EMT 250 digital reverbs. That was the $15,000.00 reverb. |
Been using this for 2-3 years... Thank-you David
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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