| Author |
Topic: Theory: How would you up a 10 String for Universal E9th/B6th |
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 4 Jun 2019 8:08 am |
|
As I have studied the steel for the last year, I have become amazed at how much music is capable from this guitar. And surprisingly, how much of what I love of about steel in the country music of the '90s was out of the C6th neck.
A while back I had a good thread discussion about adding dedicated levers for Faux C6th:
Adding a dedicated lever/pedal for Faux C6?
Today I pose a new question: How would you setup a 10 String PSG for Universal E9th/B6th?
How many Pedals and Knees would you prefer to play with?
What would your pedal order be?
Which changes work on a knee lever better than a pedal as they normally are found on a D10?
I have poured through threads dating back to the original SGF site, and feel the Jeff Newman method to be a good starting point for Copedent.
Overall, any other thoughts?
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
 |
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
|
Posted 4 Jun 2019 8:11 am
|
|
| Seems like Zane Beck got a wide scope of music from his copedent,,,and more recently Zane King posted some various versions that were very doable! |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 4 Jun 2019 8:28 am
|
|
I have thought about this a lot and there is no obvious solution. Be clear what you mean by "universal". Do you mean
(a) a guitar to which you can bring your existing E9 and C6 knowledge and just sit down and play (which is what my 8x8 uni 12s are) or
(b) one which is capable of playing anything E9 or C6 but which must first be learnt (like the custom setups Sonny mentions)?
Having tried to work out a 10-string uni that I could play right off the bench, all I came up with was a 12-string. For everyday use I could lose the bottom two strings, but how much weight would that save? Negligible.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 4 Jun 2019 8:40 am
|
|
Ian, at this point in the process, process (A). A guitar that can be utilized with the instruction material available for the Eth and C6th necks. Eventually that may develop into a unique tuning, but for now the basis should allow for the standards.
I agree that losing the 2 base strings out of a E9th/B6th 12 string (or the bass strings of C6th) is the most logical course.
This process isn't out of a need to reduce weight. It grows out of a desire to keep the S10 I have, and expand its capabilities into that B6th territory.
Thanks for the input so far.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
|
Posted 4 Jun 2019 8:27 pm
|
|
Close to Jeremy's tuning. I'd just drop the bottom two strings, but move up to a 12 string in the future. I play a U-12, but tune the 2nd string to C# and raise it to D a D# with a knee. I lower 6 and 10 G# to F#. Lower 5 B to Bb with a vertical.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 2:45 am
|
|
Benjamin - how many pedals/levers does your existing guitar have? Even if it has four already you will need more.
To provide the B6 changes, even without the bottom two strings, you need to be able to:-
P5 - lower string 7 a half step F#-E#
P6 - lower string 6 a further half step D#-D (the D from raising 9 will not give the correct grip/voicing)
P7 - raise 5&6 to C#&A#
P8 - raise 9 a half step to B#
Any of these could go on a lever, but to keep it non-custom you will need the full seven pedals. You might want to have P6 return string 4 back up to E, but I don't bother.
What Dennis says about string 2 is important. Some uni setups tune it to D# and lower it automatically to C# with the E lowers, but that has consequences. Better to tune it to C# and raise it with a half stop at D, on the same lever as the string 9 raise to D; then it becomes an "E9 lever". I have it on RKL and the "B6 lever" - the E lowers - on RKR, the only sensible place on a uni setup.
You eagle eye will have spotted two things - that it's a Day setup, and that there is no half-step raise for string 5 to get that G#6 chord with P5 (A6 in C6). Your eagle brain will eventually realise that you can use the A pedal with pedal 5 and either vertical - an easy move. In fact the centre cluster is kind of a luxury item if you don't need jazz chords - on one of my guitars I just have a single long vertical.
If you play Emmons setup it would be worth changing if you can* - then the C pedal is out of the way until needed.
* Some players would not even try, others claim to play either without concern. It's a spectrum and we're all on it somewhere.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 3:29 am
|
|
Ian, I really appreciate your long post.
My guitar now is 5 pedals, and 6 levers. I am working with the builder to get additional parts to expand it out.
I will study the copedent you posted much more in depth this afternoon.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
|
Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 5:17 am
|
|
Ian is on target.
Only difference with floor pedals, I have my 8th pedal pulls sandwiched between pedals 5 & 6 and I use the Emmons A,B,C. You'll probably want to eliminate the A# pull on string #9 to be able to use it in combination with the Boo-Wah floor pedal. So, only lower the 5th string B to Bb with a knee. It's a small compromise to make that knee more compatible to the B6th and yet still useful to the E9th.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 7:04 am
|
|
I understand P8 next to P5 - it's a popular choice, but between 5 and 6? Surely those belong together?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 10:22 am
|
|
I came across Maurice “Reece†Anderson's copedent in the Universal links and his P4 caught my eye. Raised 5 and 9 a 1/2 step, 8 and 10 a full step.
Any idea what that change would do for you?
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
|
Paul Pearson
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 1:19 pm Uni 10
|
|
| Jeremy you could put pedal 4 in the 0 place with 6th string raise only and work it with the a pedal that way you can squeeze 1 in with the other but I've got to have my 9 string D note use it as a root I use it natural and a1/2 step lower look at Randy Beavers he gets ,more out of a s10 than anyone I know on a standard s10 than I know of |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 1:28 pm
|
|
| Benjamin Davidson wrote: |
I came across Maurice “Reece†Anderson's copedent in the Universal links and his P4 caught my eye. Raised 5 and 9 a 1/2 step, 8 and 10 a full step.
Any idea what that change would do for you? |
Not sure of it's use, but I find it interesting that the exact changes, as far as notes being raised on both his E9 and Bb9 tunings.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 2:27 pm
|
|
Reece Anderson was a one-off. Every so often I revisit his copedents in the hope of making sense of them, but even if you translate the numbers into actual notes, a lot of it is still obscure.
As far as it's my place to say so, I would stick to the strait and narrow. When researching other setups, I tend to take more notice of what they have in common than the differences.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
|
Posted 5 Jun 2019 4:35 pm
|
|
I meant pedal 8 at pedal 4 position. I see no pedal 4 in your copedent? A,B,C,5,6,7,8. That's what threw me.
Mine are: A,B,C,4,5,6,7. My pedal 4 is lowering 12 and pedal 5 raises 12.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
|
|
|
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 7 Jun 2019 7:54 am
|
|
Again, thanks for all the great discussion.
I'm going to expand the guitar out to 9p7k, and keep the traditional C6th pedals in their traditional locations.
I have a solid Copedent from this thread and its discussion, and will spend the weekend refining and studying what I can of it till my parts arrive. (Adding those parts will be another adventure in and of itself.)
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 7 Jun 2019 10:44 am
|
|
What brand of guitar? Some are easier to work on than others. You mentioned the builder without actually mentioning him. (In the interests of gender equality, I must point out that I'm not aware of any female builders yet.)
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 7 Jun 2019 10:55 am
|
|
I own a Justice Pro-Lite, from Fred Justice of Mesa AZ.
We've already been talking and though the process will require quite a bit of work on my part. I've done things like changing the copedent and adding another pedal on this guitar already. It's a good one to work under. I'm confident I'll be able to accomplish it and get this guitar back together.
If it was a vintage Sho-Bud or something, I'd simply be looking at getting a 12 stringer.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 7 Jun 2019 11:27 am
|
|
Sounds like you're in good hands and know what you're doing. Can't wait to see the result! 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 7 Jun 2019 11:27 am
|
|
Jeremy, what uses do you find for your pedal 4? Always been curious about that, see it on a small number of copedents.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 7 Jun 2019 12:30 pm
|
|
Ian, I'm looking forward to getting what I have drafted up into the guitar for sure. If there is the interest I may dedicate a thread to that process.
John, unless I miss the guess here, that Pedal 4 of Jeremys looks like a Pedal 7 from the C6 & Universal.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 7 Jun 2019 2:08 pm
|
|
That's what I see. Useful on E9 as it gives a solid 7th chord with the 7th string as the root, or a diminished if you miss 7 out.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Benjamin Davidson
|
Posted 12 Jun 2019 2:02 pm
|
|
I've received the parts I need to get the guitar tore down this weekend, and expanded out.
I had mentioned going through with a traditional D10 pedal configuration, however, by default of design I already have the traditional Pedal 6 changes (String 4 return to E, and String 8 lower to D) on a knee lever (one knee takes string 8 down, another raises 9 up to D so I have both covered). So, I'm not going to keep the redundant floor pedal.
This opens up quite a bit of options for re-arranging 4, 5, 7, and 8. So any advice on pedal order is appreciated. (I'm sure it will change a few times with the way I keep tinkering around with this guitar).
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
|
|
|
bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
|
Posted 12 Jun 2019 5:11 pm
|
|
| John McClung wrote: |
| Jeremy, what uses do you find for your pedal 4? Always been curious about that, see it on a small number of copedents. |
With the E's lowered this would be the same as pedal 7 on a U12 B6th or a C6th tuning. |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
