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Topic: Fender 1000 Wiring Question |
Tommy Martin Young
From:
Sacramento-California, USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2019 11:54 am |
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Just when I thought I was done with my 1960 Fender 1000 rebuild... the electric bugaboo bit me. I thought I had taken plenty of pics beforehand...I guess not.
So it did sound great before although the wiring makes no sense to me now - it all appeared to be grounded at switch not the vol pot. My question is should I leave the tone and volume alone and just use the wiring diagram below?
Also it seems to have the volume on a linear taper (instant full volume) and it's really cool for effects - almost like a momentary on/off. Anyone ever seen one wired like that?
Thanks!
_________________
The One & Lonely Tommy Young
"Now is the time for drinking;
now the time to beat the earth with unfettered foot."
-Quintus Horatius Flaccus (65-8 B.C.) |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2019 3:19 pm
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This is a little more common wiring diagram for any 2-pickup system with a Fender-style 3-way blade switch.
The difference is that you are not selecting "bridge" or "neck" pickup - you're selecting front neck or back (or both at once).
You can use 250k, 500k or 1meg audio pots. Linear work, but as you found you get a rather abrupt change.
The guitars originally had 1 meg pots and .1uf tone caps - same as what Leo used on the Broadcaster. As the pickups are rather low DC resistance/low output passive pickups, this was changed to 250k audio pots and .047 (or .05)uf caps, then finally .022 caps - since hardly anyone rolled the tone controls fully into the "mud" area.
Although technically there's a small amount of treble loss with higher value pots when dimed I've never found a player who could tell the difference in a blind test. The pot value really just changes the speed with with treble is removed from the circuit; the cap value the maximum amount that CAN be removed.
Neither change the "tone" of the guitar - just positions of the controls.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 23 Apr 2019 4:48 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| The pot value really just changes the speed with with treble is removed from the circuit; the cap value the maximum amount that CAN be removed. Neither change the "tone" of the guitar - just positions of the controls. |
Hi Jim, this is interesting to me, as the "common wisdom" I've read was basically, 250k pots "warmer" therefore more suitable to brighter pickups and 500k pots better for warmer pickups as they allow more highs through. But with such subtlety of differences...well, I can't say I've detected it or can vouch that the above makes any real technical sense, but I haven't done a single variable test either, and I suspect a majority of my fellow guitarists haven't either. What you're saying is interesting though, and makes some sense...so could you explain your perception of a 250k tone pot vs a 500k pot, with a similar value capacitor? That is to say, which one rolls off the highs faster?
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 24 Apr 2019 1:20 pm
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Well, different pot values DO influence the tone of a guitar, and I have to diasagree here - I find that it is very discernible when you move from 250k to 500k pots (or vice versa) on the same guitar; of course, it doesn't change the basic tone of an instrument, but it is a very useful tool to "open up" too dark pickups (by going from 250k to 500k or even 1M pots), or too warm up too harsh, ice-picky pickups (by going from 500k to 250k, for example). Basic tone will remain the same, just the negative qualities will be changed....
Here's a good explanation of the theory:
https://www.fralinpickups.com/2017/03/03/volume-tone-pots-101/ |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2019 8:36 am
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Nic - the 250 k pot will reach maximum treble rolloff more quickly. To clarify, this is only in passive (non-powered) tone circuits, where the pots and capacitors work strictly as "subtractive" devices - they remove treble from the signal path and shunt it to ground.
They're not really "tone controls", they're "treble removal controls".
Roman - That type of analysis has been published for decades, and while players claim they can hear the difference between pot values every blindfold test I've seen or been part of has shown that no player can consistently detect which pot is which when wide-open. The differences are only detectable with test equipment.
The same is true of different types/brands of caps. They don't change the tone and there's no audible difference when a pot is wide open. The only differences are in the speed of the treble "removal" and the position of the pot.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Chris Clem
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2019 11:41 am
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Tom,
The ground on Fender guitars are almost always grounded to the back of the pots. But the pots and switch are all grounded to the control plate, so it doesn't really matter that they are not on the pot.
I guess your saying (it has linear pots ?)and not audio pots.Linear pots do retract faster when you turn them.But if you like it they will be fine.They won't sound any different.
I had a 56 Strat for decades that had a Audio pot on the VOL and Linear pots on the tone controls (all straight from the factory) I loved that set up.....Chris |
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Tommy Martin Young
From:
Sacramento-California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2019 12:02 pm
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Thanks Chris,
What was most interesting to me is that there were NO jumper wires per all of the diagrams I have seen which makes me think it was wired in an either/or configuration, so: Neck or Bridge or Off. I only played it once before I stripped it down.
Yes I love the linear pot on the volume as well because it acts as a momentary off switch. I use the volume pedal to set normal volume and by barely rolling the volume knob get a machine gun type of sound.
I just found this clip of a prototype lap steel mod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVGUX9AkvHQ
_________________
The One & Lonely Tommy Young
"Now is the time for drinking;
now the time to beat the earth with unfettered foot."
-Quintus Horatius Flaccus (65-8 B.C.) |
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Chris Clem
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2019 1:42 pm
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Jumper wires are a great way to ground each part.
I am not sure what the original switch on your Fender was (a 2way or a 3way). But wiring it up like the Tele diagram you show will work for a 3way switch.Most guitar wiring is pretty simple,wiring the switch is sometimes a little tricky,depending on what you want it to do. |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 26 Apr 2019 11:06 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
Roman - That type of analysis has been published for decades, and while players claim they can hear the difference between pot values every blindfold test I've seen or been part of has shown that no player can consistently detect which pot is which when wide-open. The differences are only detectable with test equipment.
The same is true of different types/brands of caps. They don't change the tone and there's no audible difference when a pot is wide open. The only differences are in the speed of the treble "removal" and the position of the pot. |
While I agree about tone cap types - total voodoo without factual background - I have to disagree about pot values; I have built numerous guitars myself (both steel and "regular" ones"), and pot values choice is always an important factor in matching pickups to bodies.
And while I doubt that you could recognize a pot value by itself in a blind test, I'm 100% sure that if you did a blind test with two similar instruments, with identical pickups, one wired with 250k pickups, the other with 500k pickups, played one after the other, you could always recognize which one is which - as the 250k pots will indeed shave off the highest treble frequencies...
Have you ever tried wiring up a Telecaster with vintage-wound pickups, with 500k pots, and played that through a clean Fender Twin with the treble turned up? It will pierce your eardrums! Wire the same guitar up with 250k pots, play it with the same setting, and while it will still be twangy and bright, the tone will be very useable.
I'm not talking theoretical experiment here, either, I have done that exact thing myself, and for a friend's guitar - and that friend knows nothing about the theory behind it, but he immediately noticed the difference! |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 26 Apr 2019 11:13 am
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Oh, and a few more points: If pot resistance wouldn't matter, then why do "no load" tone pots work so well in giving an extra bright kick in the fully open position (where all the pot resistance is taken out of the circuit)?
Why is there a big noticeable difference between the 1st and 2nd pickup position on a Fender Esquire (only difference being that the 250k tone pot is taken out of the circuit)?
Why do load resistors work so well for matching humbucking neck pickups to single coil bridge pickups in Telecasters? |
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