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Topic: Intonation Up and Down the Neck |
Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 17 Apr 2019 3:09 pm |
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Hey all,
I was playing a song with a mix of major & minor triads on strings 3-4-5-6 up and down the neck and heard something very strange. Some of the pedal B+C minors sounded great at one part of the neck, but when I slid the bar to play another B+C minor lower or higher it was out of tune. One was so bad that even my awful vibrato couldn't hide it  At 1st I thought I was crazy, but I turned on the Strobo tuner and tried a test which confirmed what I was hearing.
Here's what I found...at every position I'm holding down pedals B+C and playing strings 3-4-5-6.
1) At the open bar position, each string is dead on according to the Strobo tuner.
2) Now I move the bar to fret 1. Strings 3 & 6 are still dead on, but string 4 is now slightly sharp and string 5 is now flat.
3) Now I move the bar to fret 3. Strings 3 & 6 are still dead on, but now string 4 is flat and string 5 is very flat. Same thing at fret 5.
4) Things change at fret 7. Strings 3 & 6 are still dead on, but now string 4 is sharp and string 5 is flat.
5) At fret 9, strings 3 & 6 still dead on, but 4 & 5 are the same as fret 7, but definitely closer to being in tune.
6) At fret 12, all 4 strings are dead on again.
At 1st I thought this might be related to my Mullen being tuned to D9. Then I tried it on my MCI which is E9 and the standard Strobo sweeteners of EM9 & EP9 and noticed the same thing, the outer strings remained dead on while the inner strings changed as I moved up the neck.
So, what do you think? Why does the intonation of strings 4 & 5 fluctuate as I move up the neck? With all 4 strings dead on at the open position, wouldn't that relationship remain constant as I move bar positions?
I'm thinking it has nothing to do with cabinet drop as I'm holding B+C consistently at every bar position so the downforce never changes.
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 17 Apr 2019 3:31 pm
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| As expected. Only a perfect Equal Temperament tuning will be, and sound, equally in-tune / out-of-tune everywhere up and down the neck. JI, or whatever sweetened tuning you choose, will be, and sound, more out of tune in some places than in others. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 17 Apr 2019 3:45 pm
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I don't think you can use a Strobo-Tuner on the sweetened settings and get valid readings in the manner you have described. For instance, the G sharps (3rd and 6th strings) will read on the tuner (when set to the sweetened tunings) as being right in tune at the open/zero fret, but they are actually significantly flat from where they would be if using Equal Temperment. If you put the bar exactly at the fourth fret and play the 4th or 8th strings you will be noticeably sharp on the tuner. There is nothing wrong with either your tuner or your guitar. You are simply trying to use the tuner in a manner for which it was not intended.
The tuner can't know whether you are playing an open string or a fretted note. The default on sweetened tunings is open strings. A G sharp open string note is not the same pitch as a G sharp when played at the 4th fret. That's inherent in Just Intonation (Sweetened tunings).
So you can use the sweetened setting to tune an open string, and some of the common pedal/lever pulls. You will get some invalid readings if you use it for anything else.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Apr 2019 4:55 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...So, what do you think? Why does the intonation of strings 4 & 5 fluctuate as I move up the neck? With all 4 strings dead on at the open position, wouldn't that relationship remain constant as I move bar positions? |
Well, as you move farther up the neck, towards the center of the strings, the strings deflect more (read: "easier") from bar pressure. Deflection, which tightens the string and therefore raises the pitch, is easiest near the center of the string. Nevertheless, unless the strings are irregular (from a manufacturing defect or wear), or unless there is a problem irregularity at the crown of the changer fingers, any such deviation in intonation is a moot point. Small deviations are normally compensated for by the positioning of the bar when we actually play, and it's good to keep in mind that too much down-force on the bar will magnify this problem.
It may also be helpful to keep in mind that electronic tuners are far too sensitive to be used when the bar is on the strings. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2019 6:53 pm
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| When Playing up the register I always use 2 notes only. that will prevent a lot of untuned noise from your guitar. |
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Michael Hill
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2019 7:34 pm
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I'm with Paul. If you're using a sweetened tuning setting on your tuner, it only works for the open strings.
Another thing to think about is being in tune open and in tune at the 12th fret is the standard test for good intonation. Since you're in tune at both those places, your intonation is good. |
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Mark McCornack
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2019 9:27 pm
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| Just curious...When did you last change your strings? Old funky dead strings can absolutely cause intonation problems at various positions as you describe. This is also very evident on a guitar, banjo, etc. Stringed instruments in general. If your strings are old or played out, try changing them and see if that improves things |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 3:26 am
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Sometimes I'm so focused on keeping the bar at right angles to the strings, I forget about keeping the nose/heel pressure equal. Worth bearing in mind?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 7:40 am
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After sleeping on it, some responses didn't make as much sense as I originally thought
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| As expected. Only a perfect Equal Temperament tuning will be, and sound, equally in-tune / out-of-tune everywhere up and down the neck. JI, or whatever sweetened tuning you choose, will be, and sound, more out of tune in some places than in others. |
So if I was to tune strings 3-4-5-6 and the B&C pedals to equal temperament, the relationship between them would remain constant up and down the neck instead of what I saw (and heard)? That could be fun to try
| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
The tuner can't know whether you are playing an open string or a fretted note. The default on sweetened tunings is open strings. A G sharp open string note is not the same pitch as a G sharp when played at the 4th fret. That's inherent in Just Intonation (Sweetened tunings).
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Can you elaborate on that, I'm not sure I'm following. How is the tuner able to distinguish between a G# played at an open position and a G# played at a fretted position and why would they be different?
| Greg Lambert wrote: |
| When Playing up the register I always use 2 notes only. that will prevent a lot of untuned noise from your guitar. |
That's a challenge for me. The main thing I do these days is arrange songs for solo PSG so I'm frequently playing 3 or 4 note chords and weaving a vocal melody line within them. So far, my arrangements keep 3+ note chords below the 15th fret...any higher seems to be a balancing act I can't win.
| Mark McCornack wrote: |
| Just curious...When did you last change your strings? |
About 6 weeks ago, when I went from E9 to D9 
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Sometimes I'm so focused on keeping the bar at right angles to the strings, I forget about keeping the nose/heel pressure equal. Worth bearing in mind? |
In my initial tests, I tried varying the downward pressure and it made little difference. Besides, I think uneven/excessive downward pressure would have made all 4 strings stray, not leave strings 3 & 6 in tune with 4 & 5 fluctuating at every bar position.
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA
Last edited by Dennis Montgomery on 18 Apr 2019 8:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 7:53 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Sometimes I'm so focused on keeping the bar at right angles to the strings, I forget about keeping the nose/heel pressure equal. Worth bearing in mind? |
I think that depends on how well and quickly ones ear/hand coordination works.
I for one ignore all advices about even/steady bar-pressure, -angles, and also bar-position relative to fret-markers, while playing.
Adjusting the bar on-the-fly to make the strings sound as I want and in tune with each other while playing up and down the neck, is about the only "tool" available on a PSG. No way I'm gonna give it up. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 8:16 am
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| I don’t see how string 4 could be flat at fret 3 and sharp at fret 7. That seems to defy physics. All the other readings make sense for the most part. Does the tuner actually stabilize at those readings as the strings’ volumes decay? My iStroboSoft tuner is very sensitive to initial attack and only stabilizes after a few seconds of decay. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 8:18 am
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
After sleeping on it, some responses didn't make as much sense as I originally thought
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| As expected. Only a perfect Equal Temperament tuning will be, and sound, equally in-tune / out-of-tune everywhere up and down the neck. JI, or whatever sweetened tuning you choose, will be, and sound, more out of tune in some places than in others. |
So if I was to tune strings 3-4-5-6 and the B&C pedals to equal temperament, the relationship between them would remain constant up and down the neck instead of what I saw (and heard)? That could be fun to try |
Constant; yes … if you keep your bar under control it will sound as good and/or bad (depending on whether you tolerate the sound of ET tuning or not) in all positions
FWIW: I prefer to tune out all beats that it is technically possible to tune out – which is about as far from ET tuning as one can get, and leave out or work the bar for whatever chords that don't sound right and in tune with such a JI tuning.
Also: I only tune a base-note for my tuning in open position. All other notes I tune to each other with the bar on the strings in various positions on the lower half on the neck. I have tuners, but hardly ever bother to use one for anything but to tune/check the chosen base-note. Few chords are played in open position anyway, so IMO there's not much point in tuning for playing in tune at the zero fret. |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 8:20 am
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" Greg Lambert wrote:
When Playing up the register I always use 2 notes only. that will prevent a lot of untuned noise from your guitar.
That's a challenge for me. The main thing I do these days is arrange songs for solo PSG so I'm frequently playing 3 or 4 note chords and balancing a vocal melody line. So far, my arrangements keep 3+ note chords below the 15th fret...any higher seems to be a balancing act I can't win. "
Exactly correct. fret 15 and below will handle 3 + notes with the exception of Raising or lowering the E's. Anything above 15 will start to show significant problems with more than 3 notes played on my derby tuned sweetened. Cabinet drop , intonation and string quality starts to show its effect above 15 when 3 or more notes are played.
I can tune straight 440 open and with pedals on all strings and this will eliminate the biggest part of the problem above fret 15 but the overall sound isn't near as rich. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 11:17 am
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What Paul S said above, and Georg said in a different way is the fundamental answer to the OP's question. The sweetened tuning presets are a set of compensated intervals, not absolute notes anywhere on the neck.
The notes in the sweetened preset relate to the intervals found in the open position with and without the various possible pedal combinations (and associated compromises). If you want to check those sweetened intervals at fret 1, or fret 3 etc. as mentioned, you would need to create an new preset and transpose the intervals for each those positions or it just won't work. Simple as that.
The only way what you're proposing would give an accurate result is with everything tuned straight up equal temperament. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 11:26 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| I don’t see how string 4 could be flat at fret 3 and sharp at fret 7. That seems to defy physics. All the other readings make sense for the most part. Does the tuner actually stabilize at those readings as the strings’ volumes decay? My iStroboSoft tuner is very sensitive to initial attack and only stabilizes after a few seconds of decay. |
I agree, it makes no sense to me either but I'm seeing a consistent and repeatable measurement. I'm only checking strings 3-4-5-6 and they stabilize very quickly. My only strings that take a few moments to stabilize on my strobo+ are 11 & 12 - not surprising considering how large they are on D9.
The other consideration as Paul had mentioned earlier is my readings could be suspect due to sweetening. I should mention here that I do use an unusual sweetening...F# meantone (credit for that goes to b0b). It's still an interesting measurement because even if the strobo+ numbers aren't completely accurate, I can still easily hear the inconsistent intonation of the 3-4-5-6 B+C minor position up and down the neck - which many on this thread have already been able to explain
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 11:45 am
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
After sleeping on it, some responses didn't make as much sense as I originally thought
| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
The tuner can't know whether you are playing an open string or a fretted note. The default on sweetened tunings is open strings. A G sharp open string note is not the same pitch as a G sharp when played at the 4th fret. That's inherent in Just Intonation (Sweetened tunings).
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Can you elaborate on that, I'm not sure I'm following. How is the tuner able to distinguish between a G# played at an open position and a G# played at a fretted position and why would they be different?
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If you've got the Peterson Strobo tuner set to a sweetened tuning, it tunes some of the open strings quite a few cents flat. For instance, using the EM9 (Emmons) sweetener, the G# string will read "in tune" when it's really 11 cents flat. However, when you slide up to the 3rd fret, that same string is now producing a B note...which is tuned "straight up" in the EM9 sweetener. The Strobo recognizes the B note you're playing but can't distinguish it from the open B string and displays it as 11 cents flat.
The offsets on the SE9 and OE9 sweeteners are even wider (farther from straight-up)
If you're going to tests like this with the Peterson, I think you'll need to set it to the EQU (Equal Temperament) setting and make note of the offsets.....something the Peterson isn't set up to easily display. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 11:47 am
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b0b has suggested not using meantone on an E9th tuned guitar. From his “Unusual Copedents†article:
“A common question from steelers is “Can I use MT on the E9th?â€. I don’t recommend it unless you have a guitar with no cabinet drop. The typical 5 cent drop from the E9th’s A+B pedals is enough to throw these calculations out of whack. There’s no pedal combination on the C6th that exerts that much stress on the machine. Maybe with an Emmons Counterforce or similar device, it would work. I haven’t tried it.â€
Probably the same for D9. You’re playing a 12-string, too, right? I don’t know if this is what is causing that weird discrepancy on string 4. But as they say, everything affects everything. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 12:01 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
b0b has suggested not using meantone on an E9th tuned guitar. From his “Unusual Copedents†article:
“A common question from steelers is “Can I use MT on the E9th?â€. I don’t recommend it unless you have a guitar with no cabinet drop. The typical 5 cent drop from the E9th’s A+B pedals is enough to throw these calculations out of whack. There’s no pedal combination on the C6th that exerts that much stress on the machine. Maybe with an Emmons Counterforce or similar device, it would work. I haven’t tried it.â€
Probably the same for D9. You’re playing a 12-string, too, right? I don’t know if this is what is causing that weird discrepancy on string 4. But as they say, everything affects everything. |
Back when I 1st got the 12 string, I wasn't playing Emmons E9, but an odd variation with differently tuned strings 1 and 9 and many chords on odd grips. I was using the strobo+ EM9 and EP9 sweeteners and they sounded awful. b0b and I traded a few PM's and he suggested F# meantone and it worked great. Now that I've settled into Emmons perhaps I should return to the EM9 & EP9 sweeteners...unless they're not friendly to D9
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 12:14 pm
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| Dennis Montgomery wrote: |
| Ian Worley wrote: |
The only way what you're proposing would give an accurate result is with everything tuned straight up equal temperament. |
I'm concluding that as well. When I get the time in the next day or two, I'll tune strings 3-4-5-6 open and B+C to equal temperament at the open position and rerun my measurements up the neck. |
You're thinking way too hard about this. It's really simple. The part of my post that you quoted is just an acknowledgment of the basic laws of physics, those laws aren't debatable.
If it sounds good, just play! |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 12:31 pm
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| Dennis , forget the tuner and tune by ear and see if the tuning improves up the neck. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Apr 2019 1:12 pm
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| The tuner can't know whether you are playing an open string or a fretted note. The default on sweetened tunings is open strings. A G sharp open string note is not the same pitch as a G sharp when played at the 4th fret |
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Absolutely - provided you're exactly over the 4th fret in this example, it's really this simple.
| Ian Worley wrote: |
What Paul S said above, and Georg said in a different way is the fundamental answer to the OP's question. The sweetened tuning presets are a set of compensated intervals, not absolute notes anywhere on the neck.
You're thinking way too hard about this. It's really simple. |
I totally agree. If you're tuning open strings sweetened (e.g., JI, using your ears, with a tuner, whatever), then the notes at frets other than octaves (e.g., 12th/24th) should not correspond to the same sweetened notes you got on the open strings. They are different for each key, that's the entire point of why tempered tunings like Equal Temperament were created. But the intervals of the straight-bar positions should sound fine at every fret, provided
1. Your bar is exactly straight;
2. As Donny suggests, you're not pressing down too hard and thus pushing notes sharp;
3. There's not something, somehow, wrong with your guitar.
IMO, it is a hard-acquired skill to play way up the neck very nicely in-tune. There's a reason why "way up there" is called "Hugheyland": because John Hughey was so great "way up there". But you're probably fine because you also noted that your 12th fret measurements are dead-on. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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