Which way to go 10 or 12 string

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

I now play a SD-10 and want to know how much of a problem to go to a SD-12. Is it like starting all over again. If thats true I'll stay with my SD-10 Emmons LaGrand III.I will not live long enought if I have to start all over again. I have been almost 9 years now and i'm just getting there. Hu Talk about being SLOW.
Sam White

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Unless you change your copedant, I think the only adjustment would be with your right hand getting used to the extra 2 strings.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

David Doggett · Posted 2 Jan 2006 2:13 pm

When I switched from S10 E9 to S12 extended E9, there was a period of adjustment that took a few weeks. I discovered that I was cueing on which string to pick by the fact that the postition markers were down the center of the neck between the 5th and 6th strings. On the S12 the markers were between the 6th and 7th strings. That plus the extra two strings had me guessing which string to pick for awhile. I ran a red marking pen down the back side of the 8th string to help guide me. After about a month or I didn't need the marking pen anymore. I had unconsciously learned to cue on the fact that on an S12 there are 6 unwound and 6 wound strings, and the dividing line is right in the middle of the strings between 6 and 7, with the 8th string root being the 2nd wound string.

However, I have to say that the lower grips seemed very complicated and hard to learn on extended E9. I'm sure I would have learned them eventually, but when I tried an S12 universal the lower grips cleared up for me immediately. With the D string removed and put on a lever, there are nothing but open chord strings on the bottom, no skips - you can't hit a wrong string on the simple basic chords. That, plus a lot of other reasons and the whole B6 availability won me over to a uni the instant I tried one. It took only a week or so for my right hand thumb to get use to the missing D string.

The bottom line is that for me a uni was easier to get use to than an extended E9. But either way you will adjust within a few weeks if you persist.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 02 January 2006 at 02:15 PM.]

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

The only "gotcha" I can think of is that some universals put the knee levers in different places. I gave a lesson today to guy who had a steel with the "D" lever (e to eb) on left knee right, and mine is right knee right. A couple of the other levers were in a different spot too.The E raise lever was the same. It required a whole different mode of thinking.

Maybe you could have the copedent set up the same as what you play now, but I don't know enough about how to do those things to give an expert opinion.

I love my Universal 12. Its what I have learned on and what I plan to play forever. What you get is extended range and a cool 6th tuning to boot on one neck.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I tried Chris Brooks Ext E9 and felt quite at home on it.
At the same jam I also tried Dave Derantany's Uni Milenium,
and was much less at home on it. Yet I could do a lot of my C6 stuff on it.
Just not as well as on my Bud's backneck, at the time.

BUT, a big but,
I realized I could easily play the Ext E9
and I already HAD that neck essentially, less 2 strings.

But I Did miss my C6 neck, and could do many of the C6 things on the Uni,
and still have many of the E9 things too.

So I eventually got an S-14 Uni as a learning test bed.

If I had a E9 SD-10 I would keep it, and get a Uni.
But that's me... LOL.

But if I wanted to go the extended route,
I think I could sell the sd-10 to do it and not look back.
But I think it better to keep it until you are sure,
if you have the cash for the SD-12.

My one debate is to move my D lever from LKR to RKL on the Bud and harmonize both steels to the same techniques.

I now do see Paul Franklins logic of having a smooth run from F to Eb on that string.
I like to go from say
G; open f3, to G; A+F lever f6, to G B+D lever on f8, to G; A+B f10,
And it is easier/smoother on the S-14 than the Bud.
It's still not as natural as Eb on LKR,
but I can switch, and it will work

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 January 2006 at 11:37 PM.]

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I like the S-12U(Carter actually). Lightweight, stays in tune. No problems with my S-12. Just like having two necks in one. S-10's don't have the low end like a 12 does. However, everybody's different. With a 12U, everything you find on a D-10, you can fine on it. Very simple. Lower the E's w/KL and the back neck is there. Release KL and there's the E9th. I'd recommend learning as much as a person can on a D-10 on both necks before switching to a S-12U. It's really easy on a S-12U if you know the standard C6th pretty well.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

After a short time on S10 and a shorter time on S12, I can't imagine going back. The tuning on the bass strings makes more sense to me. I find myself getting used to the grips pretty quickly. Having the split of the plain and wound strings at 6/7 helps.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I owned an MSA Universal that had really close string spacing. Once I went back to an S-10 Sho-Bud, the wide spacing was a relief. Some like the close spacing. If I was to get another S12, the main issue would be the spacing. It's nice to have that little bit of separation when dealing with 12 strings and 2 tunings.

I always thought that all 12-strings had closer spacing until Larry Bell told me spacing is more to do with the brand than anything, and that there's no difference in string spacing between, say, an MSA S-10 and S-12. I found that info good to know.

David Doggett · Posted 3 Jan 2006 7:02 am

DLD, I'm with PF on having the F and Eb on different knees. I can play much smoother that way.

Chris, it is definitely true that close string spacing is not a problem on all 12-strings. My Fessy, Zum, Emmons and Carter 12-strings were spaced the same as my Sho-Bud 10-strings. I once tried an MSA 12-string (forget the model) that had very close string spacing; but that is not even true of all MSAs. Narrow string spacing should not be a factor in switching to 12-string. Just be sure the one you get has the spacing you want.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 03 January 2006 at 07:09 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Hi Sam, you raise and ask a very good question, one that my good friend here in Charlotte, Joe Smith , and I have been talking about for some time.

I don't think it is easy to just ask which is better or which should I play...

From where I sit and type my feeling is this..if we are asking what the 12 would do for us then we are probably better off for now at least, to stay with 10 strings.

IF we know what it is we want the 12 string to do for us..then yes..make the change..

I think at some point I may acquire a 12 string with the prime purpose of giving me more strings ( notes) under the low B...Currently , like many here, I use the 4th Pedal to drop the B a whole tone and that really opens up some very interesting underneath scale notes...

Having two additional strings under the B would for me, offer some very curious opportunities that we don't have on the 10 string tuning.

Point is, I would not make the change until I had a good idea of what it was I was going to accomplish...I really don't want to carry around two extra strings just because I can...

IF you already have in mind some scales or modes you want to play out of with the 12 stringer,then by all means..pull the trigger...

But don't ask next year if you should go to 14 strings from 12 !!!

happy new year

t

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

Thanks Guys for your thoughts. Tony Prior I was at a freinds New Years Day Party and my Freind Manny Escobar was there with his home made 12 Sring and He took a break and said go ahead and play. I sat down and before I knew it I was doing pretty good on it. i figured out how to play it and i kind of liked it.I think i'll just think about staying with the 10 strings for awhile.If I did go for a 12 or 14 I'd have Jerry Fessenden build me one and keep the SD-10.
Sam White

[This message was edited by Samuel E. White on 03 January 2006 at 07:56 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Sam,
I was intrigued with the 12 string extended E9th setup. I like the sound of of the lower strings. However, after playing a 10 string neck for sooooo long, I just couldn't get used to the feel of 12 strings. My right hand was just so used to resting on the strings for position that I was always grabbing the wrong strings. I decided that my time would be better spent on the C6th neck than relearning the E9th neck.
Erv

Robbie Daniels · From: Casper, Wyoming, USA

I went directly from a Fender 400 S8 in late 60's to a MSA D12 and have never looked back. Msa built me a D12 in 1974 and in Dec. 2005 I received a new Carter D12. What you play, in my opinion, is what you are comfortable with. The string spacing or finding certain strings has never bothered me. It would be fair to say that the additional two strings are realy not needed, but it sure is nice to have them when you occasionally need them, but I am sure that it would take some getting used to. I had about a three month period of adjustment when I went from eight to 12 strings and when I try to play a ten string steel I have a bit of adjaustment to make when grabbing certain strings. On the other hand I have no problem going from 12 strings to my Rickenbacker 8 string, perhaps I originally learned on a non-pedal steel.

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Carter D12, MSA D12, MSA S12, 1956 Rickenbacker D8, Evans FET 500LV, Evans SE200, Peavey Transfex Pro

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Why are you considering a 12 string?

(topic moved to "Pedal Steel" section)

Buck Dilly · From: Branchville, NJ, USA * R.I.P.

I wish to add, after trying U-12, D10 and D-12; Go for a D-12!

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Push Pull Emmons: D-10; D-12; U-12.

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