Need some insight on a C6th copedent

Cody Stewart · From: Traverse City Michigan, USA

Fellow Steelers,

I recently ordered a D10 Show Pro from Jeff Surratt. Iâ€™m currently just an E9th player but Have committed to learning C6th.. Having said that, I know absolutely nothing about a C6th set up and am looking for major guidance regarding a copdendant. It sounds like most players are in favor of a tuned â€œDâ€ on string 1 opposed to a â€œGâ€ Thoughts? My guitar will have 4 standard knee levers and 2 vertical knee levers for a total of 6 levers. It will have the standard 8 pedals too.

With these combinations, Iâ€™m looking for a standard but versital copendent that will allow all the changes necessary to play anything I would ever want/need to play. Any thoughts and guidance is greatly appreciated.

I am also aware of the links to different copendent on bObâ€™s steel pages, They are all different and I canâ€™t seem to recognize a common denominator.

Respectfully,
Cody Stewart
_________________
Bolt On’s: Red Belly, Brown Belly, 73 Sho~Bud Pro~II, Fender’s/Peavey’s. If it doesn't sound like 1968, then I probably won’t like it.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Most C6 setups are variants of what Buddy Emmons devised way back. Why vary the work of a genius? Go with Emmons.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

the standard C6th setup, be it early Emmons , MSA's or Sho buds, with a single 3rd string lower can do give you more music than you could ever conquer !

Regarding the top string (#1), G or D , that would be a personal preference. Many over the years followed Buddy with the D as it makes for a natural "scale note" for soloing or passing phrases.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Cody, one advantage of my Mullen pre-RP D12 is I have both D and G on my 11-string C6 neck. Used to have an F as string 1, made for an easy 1>5 major scale, but later took that off to make it easier to grab that D note. I find both D and G useful and handy, but could learn to live without the high G I suppose.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I have some Herby Wallace C6th material and he used a G for the top string. Very Happy

Erv

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I don't have a great deal of stuff but it's all top string D. Emmons, Newman, Steiner, Loessberg.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

To be able to play "anything I would ever want/need to play" you might want to consider the following C6 changes. They are extremely useful and common

3rd string C to B

4th string A to Bb

3rd string C to C# (especially if you go with the D string on top)

Add the D to D# change on the top string to your 8th floor pedal. This has many uses and I've tabbed a lot of those out with sound files. Generally it does not interfere with any other changes.

4th string A to Ab

Link to my D-10 copedant showing these changes:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Msa/Copedant.html

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Repeat of an old post on the D to D# change:

This is part 1 of a short series of riffs that can be played on C6th using the D to D# knee lever (or 8th floor pedal) on the 1st string (D). In some instances this change acts like the F# to G knee lever on the E9th tuning first string. I find that having this change complements the C to C# knee lever on string 3, the A to A# knee lever on string 4 and the E to F knee lever on string 6. You can always get similar changes in other positions up and down the neck but this change makes the tuning more fluid and relaxing to play. It also produces a clear sound as it's being executed on the higher strings.

More tabs using this change here:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab18.html

Hear Tab 623

Tab 623 in pdf format

My web site featuring over 450 tabs and 132 songs all with audio files for E9/C6 pedal steel, 12 string lap steel and 6 string lap steel.

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

this topic comes up fairly regularly. scroll down a page or 2 and you'll find some good discussion
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster

Franklin · Posted 5 Apr 2019 4:01 am

Cody,

Your decision is awesome, Congrat's on a wise choice!

The overwhelming desire in my Dallas seminar prompted me to create an essential C6th course...The C6 is my favorite tuning and I would love to hear every double neck player play the C6th as well as they play the E9...

The C6 is an easier tuning to learn because the pedals, meaning the way Buddy laid them out, follows the rules of theory much clearer than the E9 does.

Why I say that: The 1 major and 1 minor are in the same fret position and most of the upper extensions (b5, b7, 7, 9, b9, #9, 11, 13 within Buddy's copedant) can be applied to both triads in the same position, over both the 1 major and 1 minor triad...

I found the Emmon's copedent very helpful as I advanced my knowledge of music. In theory, harmonic formulas say I should be able to add the 6, 7, 9, 11, and 13th intervals to both triads, major and minor whenever needed... The 3rd , 5th, 7th, and 9th should be able to lower a 1/2 tone for a b3 b5 b7 b9 ...And the 5th 9th and 11th should be able to raise by a 1/2 tone over both triads for a #5 #9 and #11.... Buddy's copedant is based on harmonic theory so its all about chord formulas and his pedal to knee placement was for easy access.... He found what he was looking for in very few knees and pedals! That is a perfect place to start...Everyone alters it a little ,but it usually exists within everyones copedent.

Musically, the C6 is as versatile musically, as the E9th...It can be played as Country as it can be played Jazzy....Its a Rock and Blues tuning, I find Classical pieces are easier to play as well.....The sky is the limit.

The G on top is obsolete. To understand why I would say this: For melodic playing try playing the E9th with out the F# and see how confining the E9 tuning becomes for single notes and chord playing... The same problems arise without a D on top for the C6th. You will lose just a couple of G options, but what you gain is astronomical....By those who know the tuning best, the D note on top is and has been the standard tuning since Buddy added it in the late 60's....And there is an easy work around that Buddy used for those times when he needed or wanted the G on top sound...

Here is how Buddy worked around the loss of the G note on top:

By putting a 1/2 tone raise on the "C" 3rd string...You can move up three frets as Buddy did to get any of the chord voicings the G on top provides...That move is familiar to us because it mimics what we do on the E9th with group one..We raise our E's to F and move up 3 frets to get those same intervals.....I teach how both tunings, E9 and C6 are interrelated. I insist everyone start with Buddy's copedent because its all there...His lever to pedal placement is perfectly positioned for easy access...Once you master it as Doug, Tommy, Terry, and others have, you will decide which changes to add or drop for your musical direction.....I believe everyone should know what they are giving up before they vary this almost perfect copedant for playing anything.

Paul

Andrew Roblin · From: Various places

Thank you, Paul!

Cody Stewart · From: Traverse City Michigan, USA

Thanks so much, Paul. Your explanation is exactly the information I was looking for. I really appreciate the help and advice of everyone who has replied to this thread.

With Respect,
Cody
_________________
Bolt On’s: Red Belly, Brown Belly, 73 Sho~Bud Pro~II, Fender’s/Peavey’s. If it doesn't sound like 1968, then I probably won’t like it.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

There's nowhere on my uni to put a lever for the equivalent of the 3rd string raise to C# (in reality B to B#); but because I have a Day setup on the E9, I have the A pedal next to P5, so A, 5 and the vertical give me that Emmons voicing that Paul Franklin describes and it's easy to access.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You might look at losing the low C and sticking a middle D in the tuning as a possibility in the future. Gives you a straight pentatonic scale across the strings and makes quartal type harmony easily available.

On a basic level I would start with the Emmons set up with those extra levers Greg Cutshaw suggests and see how it feels.

C6 is super fun.
_________________
Bob

Christopher Woitach · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I play a Bb6 U12, using Reece Andersonâ€™s last copedent. In light of Paul Franklinâ€™s comment about the logic of Buddy Emmons setup of the pedals, Maurice, who was incredibly innovative and a player who fully understood the steel guitar, in all its tunings, chose to keep the order of the pedals the same as Emmons, with some personal changes. P4, P5, P6, and P8 are standard, and while there is no equivalent to the C-C# raise, the tuning does include the equivalent of the D on top, and the equivalent of the high G.

One useful difference that he used both on the Bb6 and his C6 tunings was also putting a D as the lowest string (C on Bb6), and having P8 only lower it 1/2 step. You lose the â€œboo-wahâ€ sound, but I donâ€™t miss that, or the low root on P8, just a personal preference.

So, long winded agreement with â€œstart with Buddyâ€™s copedentâ€
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

C6th v A6th Question?
I've been playing A6th a lot on my lap steels and like the tonality as well as where I find things on the neck.
On my Promat D-10 there is C6th on the back neck with standard changes. They seem fine though I've found little use for the 4th pedal, A's up to B.... Seems to me Bb would at least get a nice more useful 7th?

That aside, my question is are there other players out there who use A6 on the back neck with more or less the same basic pedal and knee changes as a C6th would have?
Think I'd find that less confusing when going between steels.
I do have A6th with just 4 pedals on the back neck of my Blankenship D-8 and it seems natural.

Thanks for any ideas from guys or gals who have much more experience with the second neck Idea

_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Well of course as a uni player I'm already playing B6, and I sometimes find myself wishing there were more frets behind the bar. So maybe you're on to something. A6 tuning would bring the key of C to the 3rd fret which would be a good feel. Top string would be E presumably.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Thanks Ian,
Yes, I have no particular reason to prefer A6th over C6th other than what I'm more used to using. I also have so little experience with C6th that I may well be missing something.
I do find the positions in C6th strange like having E based at the 4th fret. In a few tunes that seems a little better, but in most it is difficult to remember all the places I need to go. Maybe it's just a matter of teaching this old dog a few new tricks?
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

You could try B6 to help with navigation, as it's very similar to E9 with the Es lowered. Right from when I started learning I tuned the back neck down to B as preparation for maybe changing to a uni, which I soon did.

But even if I'd stuck with the D10 I would have continued with B6 because it relates to E9 so well.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Indeed A6th & B6th both have many positions in the same places as E9th...
Not so with C6th and that's why I wondered if there is some advantage in C6th? Very Happy

_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I think it's tradition. E, C, and A were the commonest tunings on multi-neck guitars, I believe. The additon of the first pedals effectively combined E and A and left C on its own.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Hi Ian.
I'd sure like to hear from some pro C6th players.
So far not a word on why it is better, but I'd really be open to hear something.
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Paul Franklin was on another thread a few days ago saying how he wished more players studied C6. Although to be a pro C6 player, first you need to be a pro on E9 - the "money neck"! Smile

If you can get Buddy Emmons' Basic C6 course that will explain better than anything the philosophy of it - much more intuitive than the E9 where every note is accounted for.

To me the biggest difference is that on the E9 the pedals give you extra scale notes, whereas on the C6 they emulate bar slants.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

I like having the 5th tone at the top because I use that string in a lot of what I do know how to play.
I think many, maybe most do have the D now that is kind of like the F# first string on E9th.
I'm sure not good enough on that tuning to give advice! Embarassed

Those standard 5 pedals also give a lot of chord variation.
I like raising the root note a half tone as well as the lower.

Have not yet found much use for the A's to B's pedal change? Guess I need a lot of wood shedding.
Seems like pedals 5,6 & 7 are the most useful so far, but like I said, I'm not the one to ask about the back neck yet. Very Happy

_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Andy...

A lot of us have ditched the 4th pedal raising A's to B. For a long time, I had it on a knee lever with a half stop at Bb.

I often wondered why C6 was chosen over A6 or E6 to have both necks kinda sorta similar. My thoughts would be that A6 would be too low, and would tend to get lost in the bass region a lot easier than C6. Of course, from the 3rd fret up, It would be a regular C6. I think B6 would be a good choice.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic