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Topic: Leslie G37 - Anyone Using it? |
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 3 Apr 2019 12:52 pm |
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I've never seen it.
A couple of points to jot down or consider:
- No reverb.
- No effects loop.
- Weight is 100 pounds. Below it, it says under items commonly purchased with it were two hand trucks. |
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Lance Clifford
From:
Oregon, USA
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2019 2:28 pm
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| It wouldn't be for a main amp. More like a switchable effects setup. Weight is not a concern as it will sit in my studio! |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 3 Apr 2019 9:11 pm
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Mechanical rotors and digitized simulators; although the simulator sounds like the original within the first few seconds, quality listening will note that the effect is too perfect and the repeats are exactly the same whereas in the mechanical rotor device, Vibratone single rotor Leslie or even two rotor Leslies, there is a random variation in the sound of the ramps simply from the slippage of the rotating assembly, belts, pulleys centrifugal force of a rotating mass presenting a sound that slows down and speeds up slightly and since there are two rotors of different masses with two different pulley assembly systems, there is an interplay of those two rotating masses playing off each other in the aggregate.
I think this is what must be considered.
The simulator is close, but it's not able to reproduce the exact nature of a rotating mechanical mass.
If one wants the digital sound of the constant exact same rotation speed sound, or the variation of the mechanical rotors, is something to be pondered.
Take note that the G37 is for guitar while the Studio 12 is for keyboards.
For guitar, a two rotor Leslie with an 800hz crossover does not really lend itself to a guitar tone, although artists have used the two rotor Leslie on hit songs, the more suited Leslie for just guitar is the single rotor Leslie without the top rotor treble horn. The CBS Fender Vibratone is serendipitously the guitar Leslie. IMO.
But to be critical, the horizontal rotation of a two rotor Leslie, the lower rotor laying flat is moving away from the listener and only sounds proper with a long sustaining tone like that from an organ to where a sustained tone of the organ can be heard from the lower rotor through a full cycle of rotation of the lower rotor.
With guitar, the short attack, sustain, delay, release of a guitar note does not last long enough to make the lower rotor reproduce the guitar.
Hence the better guitar Leslie is a single rotor lower rotor type rotor that is mounted vertically because the short note of the guitar can be heard better to go through a chorale/tremolo speed (slow/fast) and does not disappear from the listener as the horizontal rotor rotation does because the sound gets thrown up and around not behind and around making it sound distant to the listener.
Why?
Because with a two rotor Leslie and with the lower rotor which carries the low end of a guitar tone, is moving away from the listener overstating the Doppler effect to where the sound gets lost; what one hears the most of guitar through a two rotor Leslie is the upper rotor which is most of the frequencies above 800hz on up to 8khz. So it sounds tinny and thin.
Listen to most hits that used a two rotor Leslie and it all sounds thin and treble-ish.
I'm sure many have heard this song by Jewel Akens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAPoxEdwLJM
Or the Gary Lewis version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwQsKeQjnPg
Juxtaposed to SRV's Cold Shot using a Vibratone single rotor Leslie with a crossover set for guitar;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAPo0EMfdLw
You can hear the guitar better through the Vibratone than can be heard through a two rotor Leslie.
Now, a two-rotor Leslie that would IMO be better suited for guitar would be the Leslie 222.
Why?
Because both rotors are on the same plane. While the other two rotor Leslies have the rotors top and bottom, a hole in the sound is created because of the distance of the two rotors and frequencies go missing because of the physical position of the speakers.
But it still suffers from the horizontal mounted lower rotor's scoop moving away from the listener making for extreme Doppler effect to where the sound fades too much to be of any use.
If I had my druthers, I would create a combination of a Vibratone with a treble rotor up top but the driver and cross over would be more suited to guitar frequencies, not an organ's.
Above is my rendering of a good guitar Leslie. A Bi-amp would figure in the above to control the volume sent to each rotor with the lower rotor being louder.
The fact the two rotors are closer together and the vertical mounting of the lower rotor, is facing the listener, a better presence of the rotating Leslie sound will be realized for guitar vs the standard two-rotor Leslie.
The G37 although Ham-Suz claims it's voiced for guitar, I think they missed a few things.
To be blunt, they did not invent the technologies, merely inherited them.
Listen to the demo put out by Ham-Suz. All you can hear is high frequency rotor and very little of the lower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6drlD4ZaHFA
Although Ham-Suz's G37 literature lists Cold Shot as a hit being played through a Leslie, it did not specify what that Leslie was. The Ham-Suz G37 ad also mentions that Don Leslie, the inventor of the Leslie would be proud if he were to hear the G37.
Actually Don's idea of the perfect Leslie rotor was his roto-sonic rotor which was one of his last additions to the line before he sold the company to CBS.
Most Leslie users do not like the roto-sonic rotor.
What did come out of Don's roto-sonic invention was the Mercotac connector to get audio to the speakers in a rotating drum. Don sold Leslie because as a result, he made more money supplying the military with his Mercotac invention than he did making Leslies.
To get back on topic, if the G37 were to be used for steel in conjunction with an organ B9 type rig, then it would serve that purpose combining organ sounds with guitar but more if the organ simulator was the main sound going through the G37.
But for guitar just by itself, YMMV and I think the Vibratone has that nailed over the G37 or any two rotor Leslie with a horizontal mounted lower rotor.
In a studio setting for guitar, micing the lower rotor properly on a G37 would be key to combating the overstating of the Doppler effect, perhaps using 4 mics @ 12-3-6-9 or 3 mics @ 12-4-8 o'clock position to replicate a Vibratone's throw of a guitar sound through a rotor. And putting the upper rotor on a separate track, one can balance the two rotor volumes rather than be stuck with the just the one sound, allowing the lower frequencies of the guitar to be heard.
Again the sound of a down firing lower rotor does not lend itself to guitar IMO compared to a front firing rotor like a Vibratone.
If one wants more highs out of a Vibratone, one could swap the speaker to a coaxial version and get a horn driver blowing through the rotor.
EMINENCE makes this.
EMINENCE BETA-10CX: 10 INCH COAXIAL SPEAKER
The Fender Vibratone was also known as the Leslie 16 with a 10 inch speaker.
The Leslie 18, also a Vibratone style, had a 12" speaker.
Eminence makes a 12" coaxial as well and there would be room to mount a 12" in a Vibratone meant for a 10" speaker.
Keep in mind the Vibratone was designed to be used along with an amp and another normal speaker.
This is the way SRV used his VIbratone, never by itself.
I surmise this may be the case for pedal steel even if with the G37 to hear the full spectrum a pedal steel can produce.
If the G37 had a bi-amp feature I would be more inclined to consider it for guitar if the lower rotor could be balanced louder over the top rotor.
I still prefer the Vibratone's vertical mount over the G37's horizontal mounted lower rotor.
There have been many rotary speakers from many companies, different ideas and designs. But it all came down to two main rotary speakers and both were Leslie branded designs that pervaded the music industry.
Leslie G37
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2019 4:59 am
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Thanks for posting all that Godfrey. I've read all your forum posts on this subject. My Fender Model 16 was pretty good but I used it in the days when we didn't mic the amps and the volume level was way too low for live gigs. We played LOUD! The Mercotac was pretty awesome. We have a similar design on the rotating head of one of our CNC wire bending machines but it doesn't have to transmit power levels as high as the Mercotac can handle. Back then I had often thought of beefing up the Model 16 speaker and adding a bit more highs to it or possibly just using a separate amp for it with modified EQ. It was truly a great unit and very inexpensive to buy used.
The Motion Sound Pro 145 does have the bi-amp feature. I've not heard this unit in person used with a steel or guitar. It's also about 35 pounds lighter than the G37. |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 4 Apr 2019 9:46 am
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
My Fender Model 16 was pretty good but I used it in the days when we didn't mic the amps and the volume level was way too low for live gigs. We played LOUD! Back then I had often thought of beefing up the Model 16 speaker and adding a bit more highs to it or possibly just using a separate amp for it with modified EQ. It was truly a great unit and very inexpensive to buy used.
The Motion Sound Pro 145 does have the bi-amp feature. I've not heard this unit in person used with a steel or guitar. It's also about 35 pounds lighter than the G37. |
Greg, any Leslie has always been something that lacked power on stage. Anyone whose had them in a loud band was always trying to figure a way to get them louder.
With the 16, putting it up to ear level is key as down on the floor below the ear, it's hard to hear.
SRV would raise his up, put JBL 12's in there and brought dozens of spares to the gig because he kept blowing them.
And if one used the cable and crossover set that came with the Vibratone/16, the crossover was designed to cut some of the bass out below 200hz, one, for fear the woofer would blow which serendipitously created a characteristic tone for the 16 that when used with a stationary speaker cab/amp, left a space for the Leslie to stand out. Suffice it to say getting low-lows out of a Leslie was/is still a pipe dream even for Hammond organ players. Some add subs but they are stationary not rotary.
Fortuitously, the Styrofoam rotor in the 16 lends itself for guitar while the wood rotor in the traditional Leslie sounds best for organ.
The Motion Sound stuff, although I give them a huge A for effort, are well built and look great, but because of patent infringement had to use unorthodox parts and design for the rotors and motor-belt system.
Not all rotary cabinets are created equal. The ramp animation character leaves much to be desired for anything other than the tried and true Leslie brand devices.
Mesa Boogie made a rotary cab but you never see them.
And so did many other companies, Yamaha made the RA-100 which Gilmourish of PF liked to use.
Parts would be an issue in fact Motion Sound went bankrupt first try out and got rescued. In the interim owners had a hard time sourcing parts that are not really off the shelf items.
With real Leslie parts, they are still available from a number of suppliers easily found online, belts, motors, rotors, speakers, crossovers etc. They can be found in many organ console brands and it would be basically the same motors, pulleys found in a Wurlitzer, Lowrey, Gulbransen brand organs that has an internal Leslie brand Leslie.
Leslie was pervasive especially since Laurens Hammond wanted nothing to do with Leslie, other organ brands saw the light and cashed in.
The 145 Pro is still a down-firing bass rotor.
And IMO it's not really voiced for steel either, it would be like the G37. I hear this pinched mid-honk tone out of a traditional two-rotor down-firing Leslie if used for the fuller spectrum of steel.
Don't know what your use for a Leslie would be or what you envision is worth having, hooking up and dragging around, below is something I put together that might get closer to giving pedal steel a chance in the Leslie realm, allowing for more options on tone shaping.
I would be interested to try it myself.
They are both Leslie brand factory speakers and I know you sold your 16. You can still find both of them used.
The Leslie 2101 is a 150 watt rotor with mid-bass and tweeter stationary but electronic rotary speakers and a bass port to accentuate the bass. Couple that with a Vibratone/16/18 and with the 2101's independent volume controls for the rotor and the stationary speakers one could tweak levels to try and get a rig voiced for steel.
Leslie 2101 top with Leslie 16/18/Fender Vibratone bottom.
As can be seen, lots of controls on the back panel including an out for a sub.
The 2101 is sold coupled with an optional stationary bass cab with horn. But to my ear, the fact that the only rotor is the horn even if the mid-bass and tweeters are spitting simulated rotary, doesn't really cut it and there's a frequency hole where a lower rotor should be.
With some fiddlin' there would be much to experiment with to dial in something that may do steel better than a traditional two-rotor Leslie.
You could also run the 2101 by itself along with your regular psg amp rig but with some sacrifice in the rotary department without the 16 underneath.
Either way a tri-amp situation is presented with volume control for the 2101's rotor, mid-bass internal amps and the 16's external amp.
Just a thought while we're on the subject.
Would have to figure out a system to get both units to control the rotors off of one switch set. There's a solid state relay switch system for the Vibratone sold on eBay in case the factory cable is missing from the cabinet which happens a lot. But worth the brainstorming if the sound is there for the two units used in tandem.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento
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Posted 5 Apr 2019 4:03 pm
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I'm using the G-37. I really like it and think it would be great for your studio. It's a bit bulky a weighs a hundred pounds. Not practical for gigging unless you have a truck or van to haul it and there is plenty of room on the stage.
That is why I'm trying out the ventilator. Haven't gigged with it yet. |
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento
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Posted 5 Apr 2019 4:19 pm
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My set up has been using it with an ABY box so I can get a blend if I want. See my post on ventilator 2.
Settings are input high, clean channel VOL around 7 and switching to overdrive channel gain around 8 and VOL around for a bit of dirtier sound.
Years ago or I should say decades I had one of the old fender units and always wanted to get another one. The G-37 is definitely a vast improvement.
IF you have any questions shoot me a pm or email. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2019 5:12 pm
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Thanks for the information Kevin. I already planned on an ABY switch that would allow A or B or both at the same time. Been following the Neo Vent thread too so let us know if you feel the Neo covers most of what the G37 can do. I also plan on running a Boss Blues Driver in front of the G37 much like this video here that compares the Vent to another real mechanical Leslie system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0aXOKHp5L4 |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 5 Apr 2019 10:27 pm
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
| the Vent to another real mechanical Leslie system:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0aXOKHp5L4 |
The Leslie and their different models are not quite understood by many especially by those across the pond who've historically been starved over the last decades starting from the time the Leslie was invented simply because they were not readily available to most of the planet and the models that did end up being produced for the overseas market were not the same as seen in Conus.
The model they used in the demo is a solid state HL-822 which has a ROTOSONIC lower rotor.
The ROTOSONIC rotor is an oval 6x9" speaker physically mounted into the rotating rotor. This would give a different ramp effect when in chorale or tremolo because the speaker is turning, and not the sound being deflected by the scoop of the conventional rotor.
Original Leslie rotors, the wood version that came first and the styrofoam model that came later and was used in the Fender Vibratone.
• So the Pedal Show did not take into consideration that most Leslies we see and hear on recordings use the original rotor.
Leslie HL-822
• Dan and Mick's comparison was skewed from the get-go because they did not have the proper Leslie to compare to, what most if not ALL the simulators in the shoot-out modeled their simulators after and I'll bet crumpets to donuts it was NOT THE ROTOSONIC.
• It would be the Leslie 122 that the Vent copied as did all the other makers of simulators.
Leslie 122
Above is the Leslie 715 for demonstration of a ROTOSONIC.
The HL-822 is a two-channel Leslie unlike the 122 which is a ONE-channel Leslie. The Leslies with more channels had more speakers in them.
In the case of the HL-822 it has six (6) speakers. After the two rotors there are 4 stationary speakers to be used by organs other than the B3. It would be a pain to try and wire an HL-822 with a Hammond B3, when the HL-822 wants to see the B3's less desirable B-3000 (which was Hammond's attempt at making a solid state to lower production from the B3's mechanical tonewheel heart). The B-3000 had other sounds on it like piano so the HL-822 had extra speakers to carry the sounds of piano through stationary speakers.
Many other organ brands that featured other non-organ sounds were fitted with multi-channel Leslies.
The B3 did not use a multi-channel Leslie because it's ALL ORGAN, no other bells and whistles.
Then noting that Dan and Mick are (if I'm not mistaken) in the UK;
What does this have to do with anything?
Well, Leslies that were made for Conus 120vac and 60hz had motors and pulleys that were set by Leslie to work on 60hz.
So what's the point?
• Any Leslie with mechanical motors that would be operated in a 50hz region needs to be converted to pulleys made for 50hz otherwise the rotor ramps will not be proper.
I surmise that Dan and Mick may have not taken this into consideration because for one thing they were comparing the wrong Leslie to the Vent, Lex and Lester. And they did not appear to know this when shooting the video and taking that into account.
Trivia:
Why the Lex and Lester moniker?
Leslie techs call the Leslie a "lester" so Strymon went with "Lex" and EHX went with "Lester" because no one can call their products a "Leslie" and it proves they had their ear to ground when researching the Leslie.
And Vent, it was the louvers. Must be what the EU techs call a "lester." 
Now let's investigate the simulators.
The sounds the Vent, Lex and Lester set as default are "miced" sounds, meaning the Leslie simulations were designed to emulate a miced Leslie. This would automatically mean that as in a studio setting, there would be mics on both the top and bottom rotors and as usual these mics are almost kissing the rotors or at least a few inches away.
Not sure if the Vent went so far as differentiating a mic on the rotor itself vs a mic pointing at a louver. The sounds would be different because the sound out of a louver is out of phase compared to a direct sound off the rotor. The short winding turn in a louver makes this so.
This then skews the sounds we hear out of a Leslie simulator as not really being what is heard with the physical speaker in the room, it is what a microphone hears with the mics up close and we're listening to that through a speaker monitor.
Hence a degree of separation off the bat.
So Dan and Mick's comparison to even the ROTOSONIC Leslie behind them in the video is again skewed because comparing a miced Leslie to a Leslie being picked up by a video camera mic are not exactly the same thing.
You will notice if you really listen that the lower rotor from the HL-822 is lower in volume compared to the demos of the simulators, even if the HL-822 has the Rotosonic rotor which would tend to be louder and more present than the original scoop rotor.
The Rotosonic was Don Leslie's favorite rotor but many do not agree with him and prefer the traditional scoop rotor.
This is precisely why a down-firing rotor Leslie is not really suited for guitar. Because the short notes of a guitar get buried with a down firing horizontal rotor. As I stated in the other posts.
• Then when you compare the real Leslie to the Vent, et al, you are getting two different worlds of a rotary cabinet.
And if you listen carefully you will notice that the sounds of the rotors in the Vent and my fave for guitar simulator, the Strymon Lex, the sound is fuller and the lower rotor animation and tone is there for guitar and it doesn't suffer from the extreme Doppler effect.
• Dan and Mick did bring up the word "Doppler" in their video.
Since the mic distances are adjustable to a point in these simulators, the ideal setting for a real Leslie heard in a room and with guitar being played through it, would be for the lower rotor sound to have the mic some distance away as in reality that is what is happening in real life and more so to the guitar tone through a down-firing rotor.
But of course Neo and them would not set that as default because then not many would be attracted to the sounds of their product and sales would drop.
• So the simulators are presenting a studio's POV for a Leslie, not a Leslie sitting in a room some distance away from the listener's ears bouncing off all surfaces hitting the ears at different intervals and degrees of phase cancellations.
It is important to keep track of this fact.
And certainly in the case of a guitar being played through a Leslie, the simulators (again my fave guitar lester sim is the Lex not the Vent-but definitely the Vent for organ or even the EHX Lester G for organ not the K) would be the louder reproduction flattering the guitar because IMO, down-firing rotor Leslies ( in their present incarnation) sound "awful" for guitar unless it's properly mic'ed to be heard properly and in the simulators they've amped up the lower rotor so it's a win-win for guitar players as it sounds better by default.
Perhaps a coaxial speaker installed in the down-firing rotor will remedy the disappearing lower rotor for guitar to make up for the lost mid-freq guitar tones that are getting shelved below 800hz while we listen to the speaker facing away from our ears.
To their credit, Dan and Mick serendipitously however unwittingly, chose the better two-rotor Leslie for guitar because of the Rotosonic's ability to increase the volume of the lower rotor's sound by virtue of the speaker actually mounted in a spinning rotor and is facing out.
But the Rotosonic still suffers from the "behind and lost" syndrome
Which is why the Vibratone IMO is the better rotor for guitar because the vertical mounting throws the sound up and around sides and front plus the speaker is front firing behind the rotor, not down and beam-blocked as in the down firing rotor, because it's facing away from the listener and frequencies are shunted and not heard.
All the above said, I wonder why Hammond-Suzuki has not reissued the Vibratone, Leslie 16, Leslie 18?
It's a godsend that Suzuki thought to rescue Hammond and Leslie but they need some direction at times, and go off track IMO.
I've owned the Vibratone and several two-rotor Leslies going on decades since I was a teen. And on stage, the Vibratone will be heard over the two-rotor down-firing.
And I've torn them apart trying to get them to perform better. But when one parameter is changed, another desired quality is the forfeit.
I'm in the process of making a Vibratone using a rescued cheese-wheel rotor (styrofoam) from an abandoned organ.
Just need a cabinet to put the rotor assembly in.
I've got two 122's and a 222 to use but for guitar, I'm not fond of the Birds and the Bees thin tone but more of the SRV Cold Shot type guy when it comes to guitar Leslies.
Bought the rotor with motors and 8 inch speaker off of eBay for $50 plus shipping.
Will use either the original Utah 4ohm 10" that came in the Vibratone for authentic Vibratone tone, or a JBL E110 which is at 8 ohms and may not sound proper in the Vibratone cabinet unless the SPL of the JBL match the SPL's of the 4 ohm Utah.
• There is the issue of not every speaker sounding proper in a lower rotor configuration. It's like cupping one's hands around one's mouth to sing. Depending on how you shape your hands, will make your voice sound different. Other than the tried and true, not every speaker fares well in a rotor environment.
This is a topic for another day as this post is getting on Cat 5 hurricane level.
The Leslie is a difficult speaker to hear properly when it is played with other instruments because the speaker is covered up. This is precisely the reason Don Leslie decided to create the Rotosonic.
But while Leslie fixed the volume of the lower rotor somewhat with the mounted spinning speaker, which if you notice, it was horn-loaded to increase the throw of the sound, the ramp characteristics changed into something most don't care for in a Leslie.
It sounds lopey like a racing-cam in a V8.
Many other rotary cabinets feature actual spinning speakers. While this qualifies the cabinet as a rotary, it does not guarantee that the sound produced will be pleasing.
The Yamaha RA-100. Feeling Gilmourish, the Echorec on top. Note the two rotors go in and out of phase with each other.
Leslie admitted that the Vibratone was not optimized for the best sound that could be achieved and that improvements could be made.
• That was 60 years ago.
Here's hoping that Ham-Suz will R&D a Vibratone and create a real guitar Leslie because so far they are just following what happened in the 60's when the only thing sitting in the studio was a standard organ Leslie.
Walrus: "Hey Paul, (tokes on a blunt) what say we hook up George to the spinney thing over there, mate?"
Ringo, gently weeps in the corner.
George thinks "eureka, my guitar."
Long post, but it is important to be armed with all sides and know going in, that what works for organ does not necessarily work for guitar and this being a guitar forum (unless you're playing an EHX B9 to get organ) YMMV when using a Leslie designed for organ, not guitar.
Something that Hammond-Suzuki has yet to consider.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7
Last edited by Godfrey Arthur on 8 Apr 2019 2:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2019 5:47 am
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Godfrey,
Another excellent post and I appreciate the schooling! I did look up the specs on the Leslie that they used on YouTube and saw that the lower rotor had an actual spinning speaker and figured it must be using the Mercotac coupler:
https://ssl.tonewheelgeneral.com/build_page.php?category=Leslie+Speaker+Parts&subcat=Mercotac
Perhaps the steel guitar with its higher register and longer sustain would work better with the lower down firing rotor speaker setup than a standard guitar. And perhaps the G37 works great for steel but as you said not as well as a Vibratone type of design with a forward firing speaker. Trying to judge the accuracy any sound using a Youtube video and audio is flawed anyhow but the Leslie review was very entertaining! |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 6 Apr 2019 8:07 am
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Greg, you're welcome. Always willing to help.
Actually I had thought exactly what you stated that since the steel sustains, it may fare better through a down-firing Leslie since I think the steel sounds like an organ at times.
It would be that the single notes would get lost still when not playing long held chords.
The G37's signal is sent full range to the 12 inch unlike a traditional two rotor Leslie which crosses over at 800hz and then I'm not sure what they do with the rest of the signal to the horn.
It would depend on what they put in there for a 12" and for the driver to the plastic horn.
From what I hear of Ham-Suz's demo for the G37, it sounds like the G37 is lacking lows which is the classic complaint of any Leslie cabinet.
But not enough lows as a Vibratone would produce.
Here is an attempt to get a sub on a 122 with organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQRXVTlsQo
Note it's more gear to buy, move and maintain.
I would venture to suggest that using the G37 with your regular steel amp may get you close to where you want to go, but again the down-firing rotor even if the speaker is now being fed full range, is still sitting in a "horn" so to speak and the mid frequencies will not project just because of the physicality of the position of the lower rotor speaker. And as in the Vibratone, the crossover system was designed to send lows and highs to the main amp's stationary cab and leave the mid-range for the Vibratone as the mid-range is the most we can expect from a guitar Leslie unless one is designed with a 15" and a box that accentuates the low end making the cab bigger than the Vibratone. So back to the drawing board.
There have been attempts to add front-firing speakers in Leslies but with mixed results because unless you put a rotor in front of the speaker all there is is a stationary speaker handling the low end and it's not rotary.
I knew Steve Hayes, (RIP) owner-inventor from Speakeasy Vintage Music, in fact he called me some years ago to discuss some flaws in his designs.
Below is Steve's attempt at getting more bark out of a Leslie.
Roadbox Speakeasy Vintage Music
Here is a guitar demo for the above Roadbox:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnAEybXgnbk
Here is a good demo for a Vibratone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0goqhdM7o7g
So you know what each one of these Leslies do. Trick would be to take some from one and the other and combine it.
You may need to see for yourself and get a G37 and work with it.
But I have my doubts, knowing what steel needs, to sound present. A Leslie for steel needs to be developed even if from existing parts already out there.
The space behind a Vibratone for even the 10" is not as deep as it could be to produce some proper lows and that's because it was designed to have a small foot-print and reproduce mids from a 6-string not an "organ sound" from a steel guitar. Although I did use my Vibratone with an organ for years doing gigs and it worked well in a band setting and I had a Bandmaster alongside it with a 2x12 giant cab using the crossover cables which as mentioned, sends the lows and highs to the Bandmaster cab. Still using the Bandmaster head, the Vibratone's cabling system has a female 1/4" jack that connects both the Vibratone and the Bandmaster's cab to the single Bandmaster head.
You may have to come up with a similar set-up if using the G37 with your present steel amp rig sending your guitar to both cabs and fiddlin' with the EQ on both to get them to sound homogeneous, the G37 blending into your steel amp's head and speaker. The difference here would be the G37 has its own amp so whether you can get the G37's amp to compliment your psg amp is the task at hand.
If the G37 doesn't cut it then you may be looking at the Leslie 3300. A 15" in the bottom and a larger cab to produce more bass. But it's larger in foot print (125 lbs.) and on the wallet.
And still a down-firing rotor.
And you can always look for a Leslie 2101 and place it on top of your steel amp. 50 lbs. 20x20x13 inches.
The 2101 has some low end on it that is believable at least for organ.
I've heard the 2101 with guitar. And played organ through it years ago in Japan.
The 6" mid-bass speakers and tweeters would couple with the horn rotation and with the rotary simulator for the stationary speakers, may be able to get your steel to project in the mid-range as an assist to your psg amp in a similar fashion as using a Vibratone with a regular amp.
Here is a video with guitar. Perhaps it's the recording of the video's audio that is not as full/clear as it could be, but it's got some mids as the front-firing speakers are there, no matter, and you can hear Vibratone type rotor tones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb-W81p3oDQ
He's playing rock through it and it could be his settings that can be adjusted.
I've heard some play Vents through the 2101.
And don't forget you can still mic the 2101.
On a recording, I think the 2101 could cut it as a pad for steel on a band music track if it was set right.
Aren't we lucky we have options? 
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ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 6 Apr 2019 11:49 pm Update
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Just played my Shobud through one of the Leslies here but through a preamp pedal that has EQ and volume control.
Not much bass and mid-range string pop punch as would come from a guitar amp like a Twin or Session but there is a nice tone, and the mids under ramp do stand out enough to not sound like the Birds and Bees tune tinny, and as we've postulated, the sustain of the steel allows the sound to get thrown around better than a 6 string.
But this is at home with no band competing for space and just the Shobud through the Leslie no supporting steel amp.
Would it be heard on stage without a mic?
I had to crank the preamp and EQ (bass and treble) to get some guts out of it.
But the Leslie I used has a 15" JBL.
The G37 demo didn't sound appealing to me hence without one to test personally and it being a 12" in a smaller than usual cab, unless Ham-Suz did their homework and got that dwarf Leslie to mimic it's giant brothers, I was disappointed.
Below, what I used for the Shobud, something I designed and built 15 years ago based on a Leslie 145/142
33 inches tall without wheels. Organ Leslie, JBL E-130 is 16 ohms special wound. The horn driver is a discontinued 16 ohm heavy duty Atlas made for Leslies. Crossover is a stock Leslie vintage type @800hz.
Motor cleaning/oiling time.
The pre amp pedal is a custom design by Keyboard Products but configured for guitar. The company is defunct. But was the go-to builder to the stars.
No model number listed on the back.
My Shobud and the Keyboard Products preamp used for the try-out.
• The Leslie amp is a stock rebuilt 40 watts Leslie tube 122 and there's 6550's in there that add bottom for organ.
See if the G37 pleases you and if used in conjunction with your steel amp to support the G37 you may get your wish.
If you have a chance, try the Studio 12 as a comparison. Made for organ but you never know.
NAMM show photo with a patron standing next to a B3 to give you an idea of size.
The B3 is 38.5 inches tall.
The Studio is 27" tall. Same height as the G37.
My Leslie used for the Shobud demo at a concert to give an idea of size.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2019 8:46 am
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Perhaps the best starting base is one that already has proven steel guitar sound. Use a steel amp with an add on rotor in front of the speaker. It would have open and close shutters allow the base steel amp sound to come through when the effect is not needed. For a studio set up it could be even simpler with a unit that hangs on the front or is wheeled in place in front of the amp. Lots of trade-offs in the chambers and acoustics for sure but all of the existing units also have trade-off and deficiencies.
Of course with the Strymon Lex, Neo Ventilaor 2, Lester G and others the need for a physical Leslie unit is diminished for all but purists. For me at this point, it's all just a hobby. Interesting discussion and fun to play with all the toys. The Vibratone worked good enough for me in the old days on a bandstand and the Line 6 Roto-Machine records quite well in mono and stereo for small parts of a song.
Listen to the Roto-Machine effect I used in this song:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Roto/Tab26.mp3
I should have switch rotor speeds to slow on the ending!
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Roto/Roto.html |
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Ron Kassof
From:
Las Vegas, NV, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2019 9:56 am
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Maybe you should put an oscillating fan in front of your amp, a la "Fandingus"?
Only half kidding. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2019 11:45 am
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| Ron, the effect of the fan clearly illustrates the principle! Would save me a lot of money as well. |
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Ron Kassof
From:
Las Vegas, NV, USA
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Ron Kassof
From:
Las Vegas, NV, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2019 3:28 pm
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| Another thing that hasn't yet been mentioned in this thorough discussion is that many of the jazz organists of the Blue Note/Rudy Van Gelder era apparently ran their Leslies with the bass motors permanently unplugged. |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 8 Apr 2019 12:38 am
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| Ron Kassof wrote: |
Maybe you should put an oscillating fan in front of your amp, a la "Fandingus"?
Only half kidding. |
So many ideas for a rotary that most of them while they are getting an effect have very little character other than sounding obnoxious. But there were those those that did sell and mostly for church organs.
Allen organ's rotary.
Would Macgyver approve?
Need a rotary sub down to below 1hz? Yes ONE CYCLE! Amusement parks use this thing.
Fandingus?
BTW Ron your u2b clip is not there anymore.
| Quote: |
| Another thing that hasn't yet been mentioned in this thorough discussion is that many of the jazz organists of the Blue Note/Rudy Van Gelder era apparently ran their Leslies with the bass motors permanently unplugged. |
That's because for organ, many jazz organists did not like chorale but did like tremolo. And during recordings, a technician had to be sitting by the Leslie to make sure the rotors stopped with the scoop/horn facing the mic.
Which is where Hammond-Suzuki got the idea to put an electronic device in their Leslies that make the rotors face out when in stop mode by using photo cells to detect the position of the rotors, which at times does not work if the cells are out of alignment. YMMV
• A very subjective idea in that unless the listener is sitting smack dab in the middle of the Leslie, you won't get that effect and is only usable for recording if one's anality behooves them so and you happen to be playing jazz and don't like chorale.
And it would be the slow motors that would be unplugged usually while the fast motors were left in to get tremolo.
Most two rotor Leslies have 4 motors in all.
2 stacks of two.
But the new made today Leslies have a single motor for each rotor that does both speeds. And they are prone to breaking so YMMV. Which is why many prefer the ones made by Don and then CBS.
Everyone had their idea of what was the best set-up for a Leslie. Some take the deflectors off the horn.
Even Leslie had some wild and crazy ideas.
Leslie 950. 4 rotors with blacklights on the sides to set off the dayglo paint.
The classic Leslie rotor "stop" or "brake" is anywhere the rotors happen to stop and that in itself is a "sound." Then when the rotors are set to chorale or tremolo, the sound is different from where the rotors landed at stop and the ramp effect will always be different because of this.
Which is what a simulator cannot do, at least not at present.
The traditional Leslie brake was an add-on which had a relay vacuum tube that was inserted onto the 5-pin brake socket on the Leslie amp that when switched to stop would put the rotors in chorale for a few seconds before the rotors would stop otherwise the rotors would coast to a stop which would take some time before gravity took control.
Some however like that effect and would disengage the tube relay.
Tube brake relay for older Leslie rotors.
And the switch would need to be a three position COT switch to get chorale, tremolo and stop, if the slow motors were not unplugged at the Leslie
COT halfmoon switch
Today's Trek/EIS soild state relays can create chorale/stop/coast/tremolo from one small box installed in the Leslie amp. No need for extra wires running to the switch. And one of two 12AU7 tubes is taken out of the amp (in the case of a 122 amp) that controls rotor function.
A job for a tech with experience to install.
You will still need a three position COT switch to get all functions.
Van Gelder used a Leslie 21H for his jazz recordings. It was a single speed rotor Leslie which made it good for jazz.
It only did tremolo (fast) not chorale (slow).
Today there are mods to turn a 21H into a two-speed.
And it is rumored (since ol' Rudy jealously guarded his trade secrets) that a line-out was taken from the organ's preamp (before the Leslie of course) and sent to the board to be mixed in with the Leslie tracks.
Van Gelder used a 1959 C3 organ which when he started recording organists, the organ was basically new and the caps on the tonewheels had not drifted.
That and his Leslie 21H which has a single row of louvers up top vs a 122's dual row, and a different amp than the 122 (some surmise it was a [30 watt] amp inside the 21H cab instead of a 20 watt.
The 21H also has a field-coil woofer.
Leslie 21H. 20 watt tube amp vs 40 on a 122.
Note the upper rotor sits more to the left vs a 122's which is more to the right. And this little difference of position created a different upper rotor effect compared to the other rotor positions. The woofer in these units was a field coil woofer which uses an electromagnet, fed DC voltage taken from the amplifier.
Some prefer the 21H for it's low wattage and field coil woofer which has a tighter control on the cone's movement vs the basic magnet speaker.
A Hammond C3
RVG and his C3
Fandingus
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2019 4:23 am
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I had a Morely Rotating Wah pedal in the 1960's that had a really unique Leslie simulator using a can filled with oil.
More info on Morely and their current pedal offering:
http://www.morleypedals.com/the-morley-history/
Quote from here:
https://www.vintageguitar.com/14310/the-morley-rotating-wah/
"Lubow designed an electromechanical echo unit employing a rotating disc inside a metal drum filled with electrostatic “mystery†oil. With his brother, Marvin, counting the money, Lubow started Tel-Ray Electronics, the name derived from his shop that repaired televisions and radios. Tel-Ray’s Ad-n-Echo stand-alone unit allowed musicians to re-create echo effects without echo chambers or the famed Sun Studios dual-tape-machine setup. Sold as the Adineko, the compact component was included as an OEM part in amps and effects units from Rickenbacker, Fender, Gibson, Univox, Vox, and others.
Lubow developed his oil-can concept further to simulate the spinning-speaker sound of a Leslie speaker cabinet. The brothers took their Rotating Sound pedal to market as the Morley – offering “more-lee†than a “less-lee.†Get it?
Lubow’s oil-can technology was brilliant in its simplicity. He used the metal can as a rotating capacitor, driven by a small motor. A wire brush transferred the signal to the exterior of the drum, where another brush on the inside picked it up. The conductive oil served as a buffering layer inside the drum, and the delay time was determined by how fast the drum and its mysterious liquid was spinning." |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 8 Apr 2019 12:42 pm
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
| I had a Morely Rotating Wah pedal in the 1960's that had a really unique Leslie simulator using a can filled with oil. |
I remember seeing that pedal.
Morely was into some innovative ideas.
Was never into simulators for a Leslie so I didn't investigate.
More and more, economics and the ability to move large objects has made small pedals that can do a good enough job on sounding like one is coming into its own.
Be interesting to see what the next 5 years brings.
And how long these pedals will last.
Some pedals I have, couldn't find the chips so they remain not working.
Don't think I'd ever buy one though. I would buy the interface though in case someone wants to use a Vent etc.
Good thing you don't have the oil-can pedal. I read somewhere the oil is toxic. Sounds like the oil they use in large power line step down transformers as coolant.
I find it interesting that steel and organ finally tied the knot albeit a love/hate relationship so I've heard.
More by some who feel that a steel player should just play steel.
All the forces in the world are not so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
Victor Hugo
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2019 1:01 pm
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Most of my playing is at churches and nursing homes.
On the good old hymns it's fun to kick in an organ effect for a chorus or so. 
Erv |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 8 Apr 2019 1:41 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
Most of my playing is at churches and nursing homes.
On the good old hymns it's fun to kick in an organ effect for a chorus or so.
Erv |
Yeah it's fitting that churches and nursing homes would be venues for steel with organ.
Church was where I got interested in organ.
Guess if steel were played at church I would've started earlier on steel although country music did that to me by itself. I wasn't into Hawaiian music but was amazed at the sound.
Think back, when a Fender Jazzmaster cost $419, and a pedal steel cost $1,000, guess it wasn't any different than buying an organ at stratospheric prices.
Trivia.
Leslie sent The Rollingstones a Leslie 950 and placed it on stage at one of their concerts.
Mick told them to get it off the stage.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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