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Topic: amp FLAT setting ? |
John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Posted 24 Mar 2019 12:19 pm |
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To get the most flat setting of an amp, I understand that treble and bass knobs should be
set to 5.What about Middle and Presence knobs ?
Thanks.
Last edited by John Sluszny on 25 Mar 2019 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 24 Mar 2019 1:22 pm
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There's no general answer for this, and I'd even disagree that treble and bass are always at 0 dB in the middle. It completely depends on how the amp's tone stack is voiced. An old blackface/silverface Fender, with everything in the middle, has a very scooped-mids frequency response. To get them "flatter", I up the midrange, and perhaps cut the treble and/or bass just a hair. Amps like Ampeg and Peavey tend to have a more flat frequency response with all knobs in the middle.
The other thing is that none of this takes into account the dependence of the tone controls on the volume setting(s) (there may be more than one), not to mention the additional complication of the nonlinear response of many amps.
Myself, I just twist the knobs until it sounds like I want it. The technical frequency response curve is useful to help understand how to dial things in, but in the end, if it sounds good, it is good. My opinion. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 24 Mar 2019 1:26 pm
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if its a tube amp, "flat" is all knobs on 10 including volume.
Have fun! 
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Mar 2019 1:46 pm
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| Tim Marcus wrote: |
if its a tube amp, "flat" is all knobs on 10 including volume.
Have fun! :D |
The word 'flat' can mean such different things in different contexts. Would it be accurate to say that this all-10 setting is essentially the sound of the amp unaltered by the tone stack (essentially bypassed)? |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 24 Mar 2019 11:07 pm
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What amp is this?
Ask the maker of your amp for the better answer.
On a Fender, flat is known to be 0-10-0.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Mar 2019 12:18 am
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I think Tim means "flat out" 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Posted 25 Mar 2019 3:45 am
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| Godfrey Arthur wrote: |
On a Fender, flat is known to be 0-10-0. |
You mean 0 bass 10 middle 0 treble ? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Mar 2019 6:29 am Re: amp FLAT setting ?
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| John Sluszny wrote: |
To get the most flat setting of an amp I understand that treble and bass knobs should be
set to 5.What about Middle and Presence knobs ?
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As Dave said, the question is rather meaningless as the settings can and do vary for every amp. This is because different amps have different designs and different types of tone networks, and the only way to tell what settings were closest to "flat" would be to do some form of spectral analysis with test equipment. Even in otherwise identical amps, variations in component tolerances could change the results.
Keep in mind that the reason that amps have tone controls in the first place is to be able to produce the most desirable or most pleasing sound, which will vary depending on the player, the instrument, the listener, the environment, as well as other ancillaries like the speakers and cabinets that are used. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2019 6:47 am
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When I 1st try out a different amp, I usually set all the tone knobs at 12 o'clock and go from there.
Erv |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2019 2:44 pm
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On a typical Fender circuit, you can't exactly get "flat", but you can get close if you do this (IIRC):
bass 2
mid 10
treble 3
With bass or treble higher than those settings, you will always have some degree of midrange dip/scoop. It's the nature of the tone-stack EQ circuit.
Brad |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 28 Mar 2019 6:11 pm
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| John Sluszny wrote: |
| Godfrey Arthur wrote: |
On a Fender, flat is known to be 0-10-0. |
You mean 0 bass 10 middle 0 treble ? |
Yes this is the purported setting which is why compared to a Marshall, you don't any more mids out of Fender because 10 is flat. The mid knob appears to be an attenuation control not a boost.
Guys who design amps would have a better bead on this, not I mind you as I'm not an electronics designer.
Some guitarists will use one of each, a Fender for cleans, a Marshall for dirt. Even though the Marshall was "based on the Fender Bassman circuit" (if this still holds true) they are different sounding amps.
To me, using an amp is combining the gain settings with attenuation/boost of EQ rather than just the EQ alone.
The idea is to get a sound.
SRV's amp guru used to mount the pots advanced in the amps so SRV would think he was doing his usual fave settings. What was happening was the pots were being maxed out since SRV used numerology to set his amps and in the factory position of the pots themselves, SRV wasn't using enough of the sweep of the pot. So his amp tech tricked SRV by physically rotating the pots so that the result would be more sweep used as, if memory serves, SRV had this thing about the number "6" and would set his amps based on that alone, not tuning to his ears but using some numerological, ersatz approach. So goes the story.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2019 4:54 pm
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What ave said in the 2nd post.
And the "flat" setting will change in every room and every time one audience member gets out of or moves into a seat.
The whole idea of "guide settings" is a fallacy - even with one model of amp the settings will vary by venue, volume level, stage /amp height, speaker type, pickup/guitar. pick attack and about 30 or 40 more variables.
Use your ears.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 30 Mar 2019 12:37 am
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Also, in the world of electric guitars and PA systems, flatness is not actually of any value. A hi-fi amp needs to be flat to achieve - er - a high degree of fidelity, but musical instruments are creating sound, not reproducing it.
Fender amps and Shure mics come with the most effective frequency contours built in to save us trouble. No wonder they've been such a marketing success.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 30 Mar 2019 1:12 am
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I'm not sure where John is getting his info or feedback, but the knobs that move are there for a reason . a HUGE reason. Not all guitars , amps and speakers are the same. Each one of us would probably dial in a different EQ ( knob setting) based on our own preference.
One mans knob setting of 10 is another mans peril.
Which brand of strings are best ?
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 30 Mar 2019 3:00 am
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Seymour Duncan has a free "Tone Stack Calculator" software that gives you a graphic visualization of a number of amps. It's a free download you can find here:
http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/
Based on it, Godfrey Arthur has it about right - it goes basically completely flat with bass just a smidge off 0, treble at 0, and mids at 10. This is listed as "Fender Modern". Obviously, Fender did different tone stacks on different amps.
BTW, you an change components by clicking on them in the circuit diagram. I am not an amp geek, so I won't comment on the accuracy or relevance of this little applet - just pointing it out.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 30 Mar 2019 8:51 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| Tim Marcus wrote: |
if its a tube amp, "flat" is all knobs on 10 including volume.
Have fun! |
The word 'flat' can mean such different things in different contexts. Would it be accurate to say that this all-10 setting is essentially the sound of the amp unaltered by the tone stack (essentially bypassed)? |
yes, its the closest you will come to getting the tone stack out of the equation
if you want a truly "flat" input on a Fender you can plug into the reverb return and use the reverb control as a volume control. This will bypass most of the tone sweetening circuitry and get you a direct line into the power portion of the amplifier.
Vintage Fender amplifiers do have a big mid scoop in the preamp, but its also exacerbated by other components: 12AX7 have a mid scoop of their own, and the paper bobbin transformers in vintage Fenders also scoop the mids quite a bit. So by nature, no matter how you set the tone controls you will never get a response from that amplifier that is "flat" as it might be defined in the Hi-Fi world.
On Milkman amplifiers I use different transformers that are closer to the Hi-Fi sound in that they let much more of the midrange through. I also move the midrange scoop into a different frequency range than Fender had it and adjust the gain on the back end of the amp so that with all knobs facing straight up in the middle, you get closer to "flat".
Since tube amplifiers have a subtractive EQ, the only way to bypass the tone stack is my *all knobs on 10* theory. This removes as much of the subtraction as possible - however on Fender amplifiers there is more EQ down the road in the circuit which you can not adjust (specifically there is a bright cap and then quite a bit of low end roll off before the phase inverter - the effect of which bumps the overall frequency response quite a bit to the right end of the EQ spectrum )
So after you have done all that and now your amp is "flat" one typically plays it out of their favorite speaker which is further away from flat than the sun is to the moon. Guitar speakers have a fairly high low end cut off, and also they typically have an extreme high end cut off around 5kHz. Your tube amplifier is capable of going far beyond the audible 20-20kHz range of the human ear but the speaker lops it off at about 75Hz to 5k, typically with a mid scoop of its own depending on brand. If you plug into a proper hi-fi speaker with the full range of frequencies and a "flat" EQ curve you are 100% not going to like how it sounds with a pedal steel or guitar.
So the fender formula is basically this:
1 - the preamp EQ scoops the mid and nets more top end and low end
2 - the back end of the circuit cuts some of the low end and sweetens the top end
3 - the output transformer and tubes themselves scoop more midrange
4 - the speaker lops off all the top end and some of the bass
5 - what you hear from the speaker is mostly midrange with the glorious sweetness of the harmonic content from the top end plus a fair amount of low mids from the attenuated bass frequencies
its a glorious sound!
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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