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Topic: Russ Pahl - why Eb? |
K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 7:02 am |
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He has a very simple but interesting set up with two pedals and four knee levers. I’m wondering why he tunes to Eb9 instead of E9. Why not D9? I am speculating that it is because a lot of the modern “country†groups are tuning down a half step. Maybe it is because of their Heavy metal roots. Haha. I guess it does have some advantages sonically. Can anyone clarify?
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 7:18 am
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When you play in the key of A or E it makes it possible to have a "Barred" low position rather than open strings that can sound different (more jangly) than a fretted chord. It also allows blocking (damping) behind the bar, which is impossible with open strings...
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYG9cvwCPKuXpGofziPNieA/feed?activity_view=3 |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 8:24 am
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My first guess was that breaking strings should be much less of an issue, providing you use the same gauges.
But until Russ answers we don't know why he personally does it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 10:27 am
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I reckon it could be either to get open-string voicing in the key of Eb, or to avoid open strings in the key of E. Looking forward to finding out.
(I don't know that the Bb universal was designed to play in flat keys necessarily.)
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 11:03 am
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Eb because his guitar is a 25" scale.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 2:09 pm
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Plenty of guitars are 25.5" scale. So what?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 3:23 pm
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his isn't keyless.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 3:36 pm
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A lot of people are convinced that makes a difference, but physics says no. The tension to obtain the same pitch from the same gauge string at the same vibrating length is the same, whatever the distance between the nut and the anchor point.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Harry Dove
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 5:12 pm
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Here is the formula for determining string tension. The formula indicates that scale length is one of the variables in determining string tension.
To calculate the Tension of a string in pounds, use this equation:
T = [UW x (2 x L x F)2] ÷ 386.4
T = Tension. String tension is measured in pounds of pull per string.
UW = Unit Weight. Unit weight is expressed in pounds per linear inch (lb/in).
L = Scale Length. This is the vibrating length of the string. (To determine a guitar’s specific Scale Length, first measure then double, the distance from the nut to the center of the 12th fret.)
F = Frequency or pitch. This is the pitch at which you will be tuning the string, expressed in cycles per second (Hertz). |
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Russ Pahl
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 5:17 pm
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I was curious that some of my favorite guitarists tuned down a half step....
Robert Johnson
Jimi Hendrix
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Eddie Van Halen
Don Rich & Buck Owens
There are various reasons for this...
Vocal range
Easier string bending
And lastly, I sensed that some of these guys were doing it because it changes the “behavior†of the guitar.....that intrigued me.
I tuned down, put on heavier strings (15-46) and lengthened my guitar to 25 inches.
I liked the result!
The guitar has a “meatier†feel....more resistance, more string tension (though it doesn’t break strings)
I’ve been in E flat for many years.
There’s an interesting side effect.....
Growing up playing in club bands, there were favored keys
E, G, A,C, D, etc.....that meant that some keys were neglected, hence they became my “bad†keys.
Now the entire fretboard is a level playing field and every key is a “bad†key.....over time I’ve learned them all equally....I’m no longer afraid of C# or A flat, or even my new friend E flat!
I hope this helps,
Russ |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 18 Mar 2019 7:21 pm
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Thank you Russ! That is just the answer that I wanted to get. I knew about Hendrix and all the other ones too. Currently a band I’m playing with in Florida tunes to Eb. But we pretend it’s E.... Ha ha.
I think it’s a good idea and I really appreciate your innovations in many areas. I love the onboard controls on the Show Pro. I have done that myself, inspired by Sneaky Pete.
Not that I want to bug you with too many questions but I’d like to know how you control things from your steel. I am assuming you have a rack delay so you can just dial in the exact tempo numbers but you seem to control it from the steel. I’d love to see a picture of the undercarriage of that thing.
Your answer helps quite a bit.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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David Spires
From:
Millersport, OH
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Posted 19 Mar 2019 9:01 am
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Isn't it fantastic to have this forum, where a player like Russ takes their time to share what they have learned?!
Thank you, Russ Pahl!! You're a creative monster. Love your work.
Sincerely,
David Spires
_________________
2021 MSA Legend XL 10&7; Asher Electro-Hawaiian Junior Lap Steel; '79 OMI Dobro 66 w/ Scheerhorn cone and setup; '64 Hand-wired Re-issue Fender Princeton Reverb |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2019 10:04 am
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I tuned to Eb when I played with a band that did alot of songs in E and A.
I loved being able to play E and A (and all them other chords) at the first fret!
The side effect I noticed is that, I was never playing on a harmonic node anymore.
Like when you play an E or A at the 12th fret and you have to mute the strings behind the bar, that went away.
I made a special fretboard that moved all the fret markers up one fret, also.
The pedals and levers all worked better too.
I am back in E at the moment but I wish I had started from day one in Eb. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2019 9:07 am
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Steely Pete, that idea behind your custom fretboard is pretty brilliant! So the fret markers are at 4, 6, 8, 10, etc.?
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2019 3:14 pm
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Here it is.
I just slide the Eb-fretboatd over the E-fretboard, for now.
The fret-markers are still where I am used to seeing them on my gigs, so I don't have to play one fret off.
I tune to Eb and fret-1 is open-E.
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 21 Mar 2019 2:16 am
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| Who am I to question a Pro on their tuning, but I've never had any issues with tuning to E. But then I'm one of the few left that still uses high G on the C6th tuning. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 21 Mar 2019 5:04 am
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I use hi G,too. I mostly play real old school swing and honky tonk C6 and don’t use pedals too much on my ‘59 Permanent with its limited changer capabilities. The 5 on top is more useful to me than the D.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Floyd Lowery
From:
Deland, Florida, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2019 7:38 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| Who am I to question a Pro on their tuning, but I've never had any issues with tuning to E. But then I'm one of the few left that still uses high G on the C6th tuning. |
The petal steel is an instrument that can be tuned so many different ways and then set up with petals and knee levers doing different movements. It is not something for just any player to sit in and play another mans instrument. The comfort for one is foreign to another. Main thing is to have what you want on your guitar. Only another petal steel player may know what kind of tuning you are using. 99.9% of the rest of the band might guess, but they do not know. For example I've had a guitar played tell me I would do better to tune to E9 instead of B6. 90% of what I was playing was E9. but I told him when I went to work with him I had B6 when I dropped my Es.
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Carter 12 string 4petals 5knees, Mullen G2 3 petals 4 knees
Alesis QuadraVerb, Goodrich Match-Bro II
Peavy Nashville 400 & Session 500 |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2019 3:03 pm
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Pete, I want to visit you and try that out!
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Craig Stock
From:
Westfield, NJ USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2019 3:58 pm
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Thanks Russ for your input, am loving your work on Kacy Musgraves recordings, I always know when you are in the room! Your style is very noticeable which is a great thing, only need to hear a few notes.
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Regards, Craig
I cried because I had no shoes, then I met a man who had no feet.
Today is tomorrow's Good ol' days |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 23 Mar 2019 8:34 am
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After doing some poking around and fishing, I found a picture of Russ’s undercarriage...doesn’t tell me too much about how he controls the delay. I think I see some kind of multi conductor cable over there on the right side which must go to the digital rack mounted delay units.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 23 Mar 2019 10:22 am
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| Pete Burak: The slip-on modded fretboard us a very elegant solutioon. I probably would have spent 3 months re-learning the fretboard before ultimately throwing in the towel. |
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Marc Muller
From:
Neptune,NJ USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2019 11:54 am
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| Russ Pahl wrote: |
I was curious that some of my favorite guitarists tuned down a half step....
Robert Johnson
Jimi Hendrix
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Eddie Van Halen
Don Rich & Buck Owens
There are various reasons for this...
Vocal range
Easier string bending
And lastly, I sensed that some of these guys were doing it because it changes the “behavior†of the guitar.....that intrigued me.
I tuned down, put on heavier strings (15-46) and lengthened my guitar to 25 inches.
I liked the result!
The guitar has a “meatier†feel....more resistance, more string tension (though it doesn’t break strings)
I’ve been in E flat for many years.
There’s an interesting side effect.....
Growing up playing in club bands, there were favored keys
E, G, A,C, D, etc.....that meant that some keys were neglected, hence they became my “bad†keys.
Now the entire fretboard is a level playing field and every key is a “bad†key.....over time I’ve learned them all equally....I’m no longer afraid of C# or A flat, or even my new friend E flat!
I hope this helps,
Russ |
I'm not afraid of C# or A flat but terrified of D flat and G sharp!
BTW, I was Van Zant steeler on the road and really dug learning your parts. Made me sound like I was good. ha |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2019 7:02 pm
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I guess in the interest of World Peace, or maybe just Forum Peace, NO-body's mentionS my most important reason:
TONE!
AAAH! Crap! Hide! ripe tomatoes only, plz! I'm militantly sixy only (6th-ey?) but every pedal steel I ever met SOUNDS BETTER to me with slightly softened strings. That would be tuned to Bb but with strings from a C6th set. It sounds stringier, nuancy-er, more human, less chrome-plated Nazi Robotone... I'm hung in A6th these days, but with strings most would use for G.
E 15
C# 17
A 19
F# 24
E 28
C# 34
A 42
F# 46
D 56
A 66 |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 24 Mar 2019 6:50 am
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Russ, if you are still reading this post, could you comment on your built-in effects. I watched the movie, "Dear Jerry" again last night. Awesome stuff you did on that show.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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