Charlie McDonald's actual idea

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

PX & PY are from Ed Packard's PST13
LKR completes P1
P0 used independently or with LKL for V chord

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 16 December 2005 at 06:27 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Some guitars (most?) can't lower the high G# to F#. It's a long throw.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Oops. That's that little string isn't it?
I think I just want it on the lower G#, for that palm pedal lick.
That gives me an extra rod for the G# lowers.
Thanks.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 16 December 2005 at 11:33 AM.]

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Looking good Charlie. I'm kind of curious about PX. What is it used for?

I think you might want to consider keeping the E to D# lower on the middle E. You're REALLY going to miss that change. Also, maybe raising the 2 to D# also. The chromatic runs that you will miss by not having that D# there are incredible. Having the D# on string 4 with a lever doesn't replace this.

Also, on the subject of lowering the G#'s to F#, give it a try, even on the 3rd string. I believe that Bob Carlucci (forumite) and maybe others have this change and say it works fine. I believe Bob even had this change on an MSA.

I think you are headed in the right direction. Good luck.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

See Ed's brief explanation on PX at http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/011610.html
If the E->D# raise on PX won't do the trick, I'll have to put back that raise on middle E. As it is, I like it for the M7th it gives with L<.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Charlie, I think you’re making a few mistakes here.

First, putting the E to F# raise on a knee lever looks good on paper, but in terms of real world playing, it’s not nearly as effective as the traditional C pedal. I used to have both, and I found that the knee lever was very impractical. I eventually took it off.

Second, the lowering the E’s to D# while the A and B pedals are down is a very good idea. I do it all the time. But not all on the same pedal, better to depress the A and B pedals and kick in the knee lever.

Third, if you’re going to lower your G# strings to G, it should either be on a knee lever, or on a zero pedal adjacent to the A pedal so you can use those 2 together to get a diminished chord.

Finally, the low A on the 12th string is very cool, but you’re better off tuning the string to B and lowering it on the A pedal. That way you get the bass notes for both the A and B6 chords, as well as a 5th in the bass for the E chord. (The 5th in the bass for the E is not absolutely necessary, but there are times when it comes in handy.)

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Mike, I agree with your first item. The E->F# raise on L> is the iffiest of these ideas. More than the others, it would have to be tested on an actual guitar. It won't take long to see if it's not worth a nickel.

The second and third items: PX and PY are key to the 13 series--see Ed Packard's post--and the object of the exercise is to set that up and see where it takes me. If it proves to be possible to eliminate the D# lower from PX, it would be better, but I need to study PST more to be sure of that.

I also agree about the low A, much as I like it. I'd actually like a string of 5ths in the bass, but that's hardly possible. The setup reflects the hardware available on the MSA. IF it's a keeper, I'd be getting a new linkage rod (I've already got a couple of cranks coming for Christmas, thanks to Pam).

All these are excellent considerations. I have days to go before I have the guitar, and I'll play it like it is for a while as I continue to ponder.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Mike explains a point I made in another thread very well.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Charlie. MSA parts ARE available. Tom Bradshaw has lots of them, and Linkon steel guitars in Canada http://www.mts.net/%7Elinkon/ makes parts that will fit.

Tom has also invented these little devises that when inserted in the changer, that convert a lower to a raise or vice versa in case you want or need 3 raises on a string. (I have 2 triple raises and one triple lower and Tom's devices work just fine.)

David Doggett · Posted 17 Dec 2005 12:17 am

Okay, I have refreshed my memory of Ed's 14-string PST 13 series that Charlie is trying to get on a 12-string. Here's my take. For instruments that can play more than one note simultaneously (i.e., guitars, keyboards, harmonicas, etc., but not horns), there is a spectrum of instrument capabilities that runs from simple chords at one extreme, such as a slide guitar or Dobro tuning (or a simple harmonica), and a harp or diatonic or full chromatic tuning at the other extreme. The tunings with simple chords have their charms and soulfulness, and can be played with a minimum of technical ability, but also with great power and slashing speed (Elmore James, Johnny Winters, Keith Richards, Jerry Douglas, Robert Randolph). At the other end of the spectrum would be a diatonic tuning, or a full chromatic tuning (pretty impractical, I can't even think of one example for slide or steel, except maybe b0b's sort of failed diatonic experiment). E9 and C6 are near the middle of that spectrum - E9 closer to the simple end, C6 closer to the chromatic end.

Ed's 13 series is considerably further toward the chromatic end of the spectrum than C6 is. It is very difficult for me to imagine from the paper rendition how it will work in practice. I'd really have to try it hands-on before I could pass judgement on it. Playing up and down the neck with all the potential complex chords and inversions has got to be technically difficult and slow. I mean the chord charts for the thing are f**king huge. We're talking rocket science here. The grips are as complicated as harp or piano. Joe Wright would choke on it. But putting together runs across the strings could be very fast, and it has notes you just can't get at a single fret on E9 or C6. The fact that Ed has figured out a way to get this monster by just adding a pedal or two to a 14-string uni is remarkable. It is sort of an equivalent step to Reece Anderson and Jeff Newman coming up with both E9 and B6 on a single-neck 12-string uni.

Since Charlie is an experienced keyboard player (full chromatic scale always available) but novice steeler, I can see why he is fascinated with the 13 series, and why he feels frustrated by the limitations of all other existing pedal steel copedents. A lack of interest in traditional country, blues or rock, and an interest in free form avant garde music gives him further impetus in this direction. So I say, go for it, see how far it can go, and/or get your fill of it and come back more toward the simple chord end of this spectrum of possibilities. These are really uncharted waters for a novice. But, what the hell - not everybody is cut out for E9 country or C6 Western Swing. So I say, let's quit discouraging him, and sit back and see what he comes up with. Meanwhile, Ed has had this tuning around for awhile. Are there any tracks of anyone playing something interesting on this thing? A few measures of real music would be worth a thousand words and charts.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 17 December 2005 at 12:22 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

David Donald echoes your F# lever thinking, Mike. I can see it now, and woke up looking to put it back on the A pedal, and see where the parameters take me next.

That's a good summation, David Doggett (two DD's here today). Someone comes up with a solution that speaks to one due to one's background and orientation. It is simply a question of trying it out.

I wouldn't say that E9 is frustrating or has limitations; many steelers have shown that it doesn't, and I certainly haven't explored all its capabilities. But to have the world of 13ths at your fingertips with the addition of a couple of pedals....

Relating it to piano, where 'grips' are moving across a series of stacked thirds, it seems to be a solution for a chord player, and that's what I am. Improvisation comes from working within chord frameworks. So we'll see how it works out.
Pedal steel is flexible but not unlimited in its parameters. The joy, to me, is in working within those parameters, to see what comes out. It's always reversible.
Thanks all for the excellent observations.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

This may answer some ideas.
Iffy ideas are in pastel.
P0 is my lick pedal. Got to raise the ii out of suspension. Can't get my sound without it.
P1 is the Buddy Day pedal. RKL lowers F# back to E. Pretty wierd huh.
From here on, it's a question of what works in the real world.
Charlie "I don't need no stinkin' Bb" McDonald

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 17 December 2005 at 06:36 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

No "A" pedal? That's different!

I do the "lick pedal" on P0 by raising the middle F# to G#. I only move to that position in country songs, and it works pretty well for me. Click the link in my sig below to check it out.

I actually think that you're missing a lot of the musical potential of the instrument in your approach. So am I, though, so I can't be too critical.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Charlie, this is strictly a curiosity question to help me better understand your tuning. What type of music are you planning to play with your steel?

I'm not going to comment on the actual tuning anymore as it looks like you are dead set on trying this out (which I think you should do). Your comment on being a "chord" player opened my eyes a little more to what you are trying to accomplish. I think these little bits of info about you help us understand your direction a little better.

Anyway, good luck in your venture.

------------------
Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Richard, I seldom plan what I'll play. Here is what I was playing around with when I sold the Starter.
Monk and Mingus Go Walkin
Here's another piece, with Kay Das on console steel: Bossa Sol
I use a lot of major/minor ambiguity.

Things change. After looking deeper into the 13th series, an epiphany occurred and I think I have an virtual solution. The levers are placed with respect to which pedals would be in use at the time--or whether I'm playing in E9 or E13. I have kept the F raise in deference to you, Bobby; I suspect what you say is true.
The lower from G# to F# will probably only occur on middle G#; a vertical lever would be ideal for the E to F# (now RKR), as it completes the A pedal.
It's true I may be missing a lot, but I'll see what I gain with the 13th series. There's a lot of chords in there, and it's how I play.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 18 December 2005 at 06:09 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Charlie, you should be aware that the F lever is almost always used with the first pedal, without the second pedal. Some people are comfortable pressing P1 with LKR, but most of us find it ergonomically awkward. That's why the F lever is usually on LKL.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I've tried it both ways, and found the standard setup backward, for me. I much preferred the feel of the Day setup, with the F lever on the L>, and that's why I'm trying to dial that back in, given that P2 and PX work together for PST. P1 + R> forms the Day P1, and theoretically puts both pedals A & C on P1, a device to get some economy from the setup, given that PX (P3)is the gateway to the 13th series, along with the G natural to its right.

Bear in mind that this is an outsider's view of psg, an adaptation to reveal the M13 and m13 chords, the stacking of m and M thirds that I use on piano. I can't help but visualize the raises and lowers spatially, but it's just a concept. As such it's experimental; but it's not a stretch to switch the lever raises and lowers, depending on how it actually works out. It depends on the guitar. Pedal A on the Starter was a stretch, and it was a forumite's suggestion that the Day setup works well for short-legged folks. Thus, I have placed an independent auxiliary pedal at the far left, and it will work well by itself or with LKL.
Note that str. 2 is back to D#

But PX is fixed, as is PY, and they work primarily with the D lower (my RKL). Thus there are two systems here: E9 and E13.
I continue to re-examine the rest of the elements, and as suggested, many of them may return to previously thought-out locations in actual practice.

But I must add that in poring over many copedants in your links, I find exceptions and personal adaptations of the F lever, Lloyd Green being one, whose coped you've pointed out to be a paragon of economy.
I actually share his LKR and RKL.

In reality, I think I chose L> for the F raise because of what you said about it's use with the G#->A raise; they can be used together, and the foot can rock either way. I see it as interchangeable with R> for the purposes of discussion. Actual placement will come with attempts at use.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 18 December 2005 at 06:08 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 18 Dec 2005 9:27 pm

Charlie, let me try to make what b0b said clearer. Maybe you know all this, but it is not clear from your comments. The pedal that raises the Bs to C# is called the A pedal, regardless of where it is located (and it has nothing to do with the notes involved). The pedal that raises the G#s to A is called the B pedal (again, has nothing to do with the location or notes involved). The pedal that raises the 4th and 5th strings each a whole step is the C pedal. Emmons arranged these as pedals 1, 2, 3 (left to right), thus they were ABC (left to right). Day arranged them CBA (left to right). The terms "Emmons" or "Day" setup refer to this arrangement of the pedals, not the knee levers.

Now it turns out that the F lever (which came later, and raises the Es to F) is usually used with the A pedal. If you put your foot flat on the A pedal and hold it down, you could just as well have the F lever on LKL or LKR. But that's not the way people generally play the A pedal. Most of the time your foot is on both the A and B pedals together (the home position). To play the A pedal alone, you don't take your foot off that home position and put it down flat on the A pedal alone. You leave it over both the A and B pedals, but rock off the B pedal onto the A pedal. So you play the A pedal with the side of your foot. If the A pedal is to the left of the B pedal (Emmons setup), and you rock onto it with the left side of your foot, you can only hit the F lever if it is LKL. You cannot turn your foot to the left and flop your knee to the right. Likewise, if you have the A pedal on the right (Day setup), and you rock your foot onto the right edge to play it, you can only hit the F lever if it is LKR. Therefore, if you choose Emmons setup for the pedals, the F lever will need to be LKL; and for the Day setup, it will need to be LKR. If you want the F lever on LKR, then you need to have your pedals arranged PY, PX, B, A (left to right). That would be a Day setup. What you have above is an Emmons setup on the pedals, but you have the F lever on LKR, like a Day setup. This doesn't make sense to most E9 players.

Forgive me if you understood all this all along. But it seemed like you guys were talking past each other.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Charlie I see a limited ability to do minors with AB down.
Just 1 D#/Eb
so your minors in this register are small voicings only.
It is much wider spread on the G# to G pedal,
but I would still have it on a lever.

LKL is duplicated by the D# maj7 note being open above it any ways.

I like having B to Bb
and G# to G available as a pair
I can hit easily from most any minor or major moment

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 December 2005 at 09:35 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

David,
Glad you're hanging with me on this discussion. You've a mind for analysis.

I wish someone would listen to 'Monk and Mingus Go Walkin' above. It's done with standard setup and mostly the Eb and F levers, so I understand the basic principle and bear in mind the consequences of rocking the foot left/right and swinging the knee accordingly. It's the most basic principle in psg.

The twist is in PST; P2 ('B') and PX are used in conjunction, as are PX and PY. They reveal many manor and minor 13ths. Now, as Ed says, that requires a compromise--the elimination of the C pedal (altho he says that doesn't have to be).
Thus, I'm trying to combine A & C on one pedal, with the use of RKR (E->E# raise). That gives the II minor (AB+R>) and the VIm (A pedal). I minor with PY (G lower). The IIIm you've pointed out [L< (E->D#)]. I would say that I, II, III, and VI are the principal minors; the others are not more than 2 frets away.
The PST pedals reveal many more, with the 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths that are so useful as passing tones.

I have considered reversing the order of pedals, putting the G# lower on the far left. It depends on the location of levers on the MSA, that is, what is ergonomic on an actual guitar. If it is comfortable to have the pedal center--'B'--on the third pedal, that would be a good solution. Without the guitar in hand, this is academic, a thought experiment on paper.

To ask the Rumsfeldian question: "Will it work? I don't know." I fully realize that this is not a solution that has appeal to 'most players,' but I'm not interested in playing music like most players. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I'll have to produce some music with it to find out.
The proof either way is in the pudding.

The final question is philosophical, a Sophomoric question. [Sophomore: wasn't he the Greek philosopher that answered a question with a question?] Am I just trying to do something different for its own sake? Do I want to play music that is different for the sake of being different?
Everything I do is different in some way; surely this can be said for everyone. But that is not my purpose; I see a system that affords an expansion of psg, and I'm attracted to it, as it appears to offer oppostunities to play what I like to play.

I am hoping to keep the core of E9 in tact, to use the basic country-inspired figures. If combining the A and C pedals on one works, that will be a good solution in order to expose a whole series of chords not commonly in use in pedal steel.

I rest my case.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I did just listen to 'Monk and Mingus Go Walkin'
Seems a slow promenade in the park on a slightly over cast NYC day.
Meloncolic and yet hopeful.

Or I am just projecting LOL

I am not sure how many raises and lowers you have.
A slight worry that doubling the A pedal on to the C pedal
takes up a changer hole you would want for other things.

Normally the IIm is gotten from BC together.
I rarely ever hit A and C( Emmons) together...

I might suspect that middle G# not lowered to G
is a time bomb awaiting your inattention...

Ya might think about lowering top F# to F ( flat 9 over minor 3rd) with the G# lower.
I myself lower the D# to D
(or if it's a C# raise it to D on that lever, for my E69 tuning)

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 December 2005 at 07:32 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

quote:
Seems a slow promenade in the park on a slightly over cast NYC day.
Melocolic and yet hopeful.

You got it. I guess I like to do tone poems, impressionistic themes.

Reds are raises, yellows are lowers. I believe the MSA is double raise and lower.
I don't see that I'm in trouble anywhere.

Again: PX and PY are from Ed's PST charts!
You have to study the material enough to see what series of chords are formed with the combinations of pedals. I have a small book on the chords; I'm not bs'n anybody here.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The "C" pedal doesn't raise the middle B string, Charlie. Your copedent is "conceptually Emmons" and it has no "C" pedal. I do the same thing, btw.

People who play "Day" have their "A" pedal to the right of their "B" pedal. Their foot rolls in the opposite direction of "Emmons" players.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Boy I hate to have to stand down from a position unless I'm forced to, but I see this isn't one I can win.

BUT--when I look at Day's setup, Emmons' setup, and mine, all three of them raise middle B to C# on pedals A & C. Pedal 3 does have differences from any common C pedal, I'll grant that. So there is no C pedal, I guess, just PX.
My intention is to use P1 as both A and C, since they can't be used together; R> raises E to F#; used with A+B, that gives the Day change on A+B.

So, in reality, I'm using the Lee pedals.
Just think, all you'd have to do is add a couple of changes to your fourth pedal and you'd have the McDonald setup*. Be the first on your block!

But in the interest of peace, brotherhood, and the Christmas season, I'll defer to your experience. Indeed I am honored to share elements of your setup, even if you rock your knees the wrong way.

And thank you for the calendar.
Merry Christmas.

--------------------
*excuse me, that'd be the Packard Pedal

(I'll keep you posted on how it actually works.) (What's actually going to happen is I'll play the guitar like it is if it has a wierd enough copedant.)

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 19 December 2005 at 03:09 PM.]

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