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Topic: MSA Models throughout the years |
Matthew Walton
From:
Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted 10 Mar 2019 11:15 am |
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Is there a list of the different MSA models throughout the years with explanations of the differences that someone can point me to? I'm familiar with some of the differences, like Classic vs Classic XL, Classic SS (not 55!).
But then I see things like the term "Semi-Classic"; I've also noticed some Classics have a raised "Classic" logo rather than a screenprinted one like mine. Was that just an upgrade like the modern 3D logo is, or is there something to be inferred by that.
What's the difference between a Classic XL S-12 and a "The Universal"?
I'm sure there are several other models I'm leaving out, but this should at least give an idea of what I'm curious about.
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
1981 MSA "The Universal" Bb6 S-12 9/5 | 2024 Excel Robostar Bb6 S-12 8/5 | 2009 MSA SuperSlide C6 S-12 | Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Larry Baker
From:
Columbia, Mo. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Mar 2019 2:57 pm
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Semi Classic is a single neck 10.
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 3 & 5 The Eagle
NV112 amp===Earnie Ball V.P. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2019 8:23 pm
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Matthew,
Over the past few years, I've had quite a few of these older MSAs and have a pretty good idea but i would like to hear other comments...
I'm pretty sure the Semi-classic was a decent step down from the classic. Generally they were light on knee levers and although the changer was apparently identical, though they didn't mill out spaces for the 2R/2L changer to be fully utilized. Also I had one briefly and recall the tuners were not so great. I'm not sure if they were all S-10 but that's all I've seen.
Now the Classic-XL vs Universal question is more interesting. I have a classic XL S-12 and in my head i think they are pretty much "the universal". 3r/3l on lacquer with silk screened logo. I just happen to have an old Steel Guitarist magazine where they introduce "the Universal" and Pro-Am sidekick. For the Pro-Am they list out 5 features that make it unique.... For the universal, they really just say it's a flexible guitar.
I had a similar thread a few years back and the conclusion seemed to be that the classic-XL was a transitional model. I have a Classic-XL and its a special guitar. I've had a Vintage-XL and Classic SS and although I really like my Classic-XL I felt that all three lacquer silk screened guitars just had a great tone and feel. I recently saw a green "the universal" go on sale and there is another member of the forum with a different one and they had slightly different changer mounts from other "the universal"s I've seen but I think both were owned by Maurice and are transitional for a transitional for a transition that didn't happen..or maybe went into MCI. Strangely It looks like the same changer posts as in the Pro-AM ad....
Anyways these are educated guesses based a lot on online reading, so... I could be wrong here though I think I'm close. Happy to send any info along about my classic XL if it will help solve this mystery.
-Jon
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MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo. |
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Matthew Walton
From:
Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted 10 Mar 2019 9:47 pm
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Very interesting Jon! Do you know the difference between the Classic XL and the Vintage XL?
I have a 1978 Classic XL D-10 and it’s a 2R/2L system with holes for the tuning keys. I also have a 1981 “The Universal†and it’s a 3R/3L with slots for the tuning keys. I had suspected that the difference between a S-12 Classic XL and a “The Universal†was the number of raises/lowers, but it sounds like that’s not the case.
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
1981 MSA "The Universal" Bb6 S-12 9/5 | 2024 Excel Robostar Bb6 S-12 8/5 | 2009 MSA SuperSlide C6 S-12 | Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 7:58 am
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Interesting indeed....I know there are a few other MSA folks on here that will probably come to the rescue....Hopefully Chuck Martin , Mike Perlowin, Darvin??, Dave O'brien, etc will chime in. These guys are pretty helpful and cool!!
Notes:
MSA switched from mica to lacquer around 1976-Mike P
For the XL vs Universal. This thread is helpful:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=177288&highlight=
Re-reading through the thread it seems the universal may differ from the Classic-XL s-12 in that perhaps it had an older heavier pedal rack and pedals.
Here's my current thoughts that I'll summarize as a reference for the future:
Classic S/10/D-10/D-12:
-Mica most common
-formed plastic case
-2R/2L
-originally non SS pickup, at some point transitioned to SS pickup
-Metal sticker fretboard
-3D sticker logo
-heavier pedals and pedal board
So for your D-10 Classic to Classic-XL I think you change:
-For sure came with Super Sustain pickups, but there are classics that had these for a while.
-Lacquer with silk screened fretboard and logo
-same 2R/2L
Classic-XL S-10/D-10 to Vintage XL S-10/D-10:
-from 2R/2L to 3R/3*
-Both lacquer and Silscreen
-both SS pickups
-Maybe Vintage-XL has lighter pedal board and pedals... sorta look like it, but I can't remember.
-typical wood case on both
*Note 1980/81 D-10 Vintage XL example with 2R/2L and a 81/82 model with 3R/3L:https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1792336
Apparently for the classic XL S-12 to Universal:
-I've only seen burst finishes in Universal but not all are burst.
-lighter pedal rack and pedals
-both lacquer and silkscreened fretmarker and logo
-both likely SS pickups
-same 3R/3L
Semi-Classic
-Perloid tuner pegs
-2R/2L but fine tuner holes not fully routed out so reduced copedant options
Pro-AM
-3R/3L
-Non lacquer
-need to re-read the ad.
Red Baron
-need to fill this in
So before moving to U12 I had a Vintage XL with killer tone. Also I found the ad for it in a magazine... 3R/3L lacquer only. Here is my old ad which I think has some relevant pictures:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=301481&highlight=vintagexl
I think these lacquer 3R/3L are really good values since you can pretty easily get parts for them, but they seem to be ticking up in price. I'm not sure if it's the fact that MSA has sorta risen from the dead with some killer new guitars.[/url]
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MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo.
Last edited by Jon Schimek on 11 Mar 2019 12:05 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 8:02 am
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Also... apologies for getting in the weeds here. Re-reading this I realize I come across INSANE to 99.99% of the rest of the world and probably 98.99% of the folks here.
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MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo. |
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Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 8:14 am
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FWIW, my D-10 Classic (lacquer) from March, 1976 has molded plastic for both the MSA and Classic logos. It came from the factory with 8 pedals, 4 knee levers. From the relatively unused state of the C6th neck, I'd say the SS pickup on it is the original. The E9th neck has been changed to a GeorgeL pickup.
--Al Evans
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2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
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Paul Wade
From:
mundelein,ill
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 8:42 am msa pedal steels
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here is a price list of 1978
p.w
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Matthew Walton
From:
Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 10:17 am
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| Jon Schimek wrote: |
| Also... apologies for getting in the weeds here. Re-reading this I realize I come across INSANE to 99.99% of the rest of the world and probably 98.99% of the folks here. |
No apologies needed Jon, that's exactly the kind of detail I was looking for!
I've thought for a while that there should be a steel guitar wiki; information like this is a great example of why. Being able to know where to go to find info on all the different models with a timeline would be perfect. I've just always been a little hesitant to really go through with starting one.
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
1981 MSA "The Universal" Bb6 S-12 9/5 | 2024 Excel Robostar Bb6 S-12 8/5 | 2009 MSA SuperSlide C6 S-12 | Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Matthew Walton
From:
Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 10:31 am
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That reminds me! How does the "SuperSustain II" factor into all this? Was there a SuperSustain I? I don't think I've ever seen one. Does that only refer to pickup or is it something related to the cabinet?
Thanks for the price list Paul. After adjusting for inflation, the current price of $5295 for a S-12 universal seems a lot more reasonable than $7500!
Looks like "Camino" is an older term for an SD body if anyone else was curious.
Here's another complication: a Vintage XL with 2R/2L and holes rather than slots: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1792336
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
1981 MSA "The Universal" Bb6 S-12 9/5 | 2024 Excel Robostar Bb6 S-12 8/5 | 2009 MSA SuperSlide C6 S-12 | Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 12:39 pm
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| Matthew Walton wrote: |
That reminds me! How does the "SuperSustain II" factor into all this? Was there a SuperSustain I? I don't think I've ever seen one. Does that only refer to pickup or is it something related to the cabinet?
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No, there was never a "Supersustain I". The "Super Sustain" designation originally referred only to the pickups, although there was an added later feature of the aluminum neck-stub (pickup pocket), and guitars equipped with this became designated on the necks as "Super Sustain II". All pro guitars were soon adapted with the neck stub.
The "Classic XL" was a full-size, solid wood guitar that replaced the die-board/mica guitars. It also differed primarily in that the center support was eliminated from the D10s. This made the guitar a fraction lighter, and easier to build and repair, and it also helped the sustain. The only bad effect was slightly more cabinet drop. (Everything is a trade-off, guys.) The "Universal" S12's also came with a center support, and these were the first all wood models. In order to have a true "universal" setup, you had to have more than 3 or 4 pedals, and this is primarily what made the "Universal" different from a standard S12. Most Uni's had 7 pedals, and all came marked with a sticker or silkscreen. There were no plastic "Universal" nameplates.
The "Semi-Classic" was really an entry level pro guitar. Except for the cheaper keys, somewhat smaller end plates, and the lack of having all the changer holes drilled, it was identical to the regular "Classic" model. It had the stepped keyheads and the full aluminum frame, as well as the same changer, crossrods, and puller mechanisms.
The "Red Baron" and "Sidekick" were the later starter (student) models. They all came with a plastic-covered body (either red, black, or woodgrain), and the cheaper keys. They did have adjustable (screw-in) legs that many other starter models did not, but they were not all-pull guitars, and had a cheaper (modified pull/release) changer. As far as the rest of the mechanics, some came with drilled pull-bars, like the older MSA's, and some came with crossrods mounted in a larger aluminum channel. A few even came with stepped keyheads.
Two other models were the "Mini Pro" and the "Sidekick Pro-Am". The "Mini Pro" was their earliest (pre-Micro) student pull-release model. It featured a psychedelic-design painted wood body, and earlier pull rod mechanism, and a one-piece cast keyhead and changer mounting. The "Sidekick Pro-Am" was a cheap all wood starter guitar with a standard pull/release changer design and plastic-covered body. It didn't have adjustable legs or full (wrap around) endplates, but at least it did have a better (but non-cast) changer mounting than the later Red Barons or Sidekicks.
(If I can think of anything else, I'll add it later.)
Last edited by Donny Hinson on 15 Mar 2019 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 11 Mar 2019 6:40 pm
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My 1976 12 string is all wood (loaded with birdseye maple). 1 inch thick wood neck and 3/4 inch thick body. Molded plastic "Classic" and "MSA" emblem. Great tone and sustain. Universal tunings were experimental and not standardized at the time. I bought it new with 5+4, but is now 7+5. It's only double raise and double lower changer, so strings 5 and 9 have two pulls each on one rod and tuned on the end and underneath.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Mar 2019 7:28 am
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| Jim Cohen wrote: |
| Just FYI, that D10 with 8+4 for $2295 would cost $8860 in today's dollars. |
Just a quick note on pedal steel prices back then. MSA, and most other builders, seldom sold guitars for their "list price". The idea of having two prices (a list price and a discounted price) was a rather stupid one, IMHO, and likely they had many delayed or missed purchases because of it. The D10 MSA that I bought new (through a music store) in late 1973 had a list price of $1595, but I only paid $1080. Many dealers on major brands (MSA, Emmons, Sho~Bud, ZB) would attempt to sell for the list price, but only the uninformed purchasers (read: suckers) actually paid it.  |
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Travis Egnor
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2019 11:02 am
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This is all pretty confusing. I have a “Classic†that, with the help of forum pals, I now know was made in Nov of 1976. It’s a maple guitar with lacquered/screened logos.
I guess this would not have been an “SS†as listed in the price list above...though, I guess that depends on the pickup, right? I’ve seen some guitars that say “Supersustain II†on them - mind does not. Also, my pickup has been changed to an E-66, which I like very much.
So, I guess the model designation “Classic†is all that would would apply? It’s an S-10, by the way. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2019 11:15 am
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Hey Travis,
Indeed it is confusing. SS is for a very specific guitar, the with "Classic SS" screened on the front in an old 80's font, it looks a little like Classic "55". These were always lacquer with silkscreened fret marker and logo.
These had a smaller fame, were lighter, with shorter keyheads, that was triple raise/lower changer.
This is an excellent example:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=341151&highlight=msa
It is often mistaken that having "supersustain-II" screened the guitar makes it a a SS. For example here is a vintage XL which does have a supersustain silkscreen... NOT an SS:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=301481&highlight=vintagexl
These are probably the most favored of the older MSAs for tone, feel, looks, and weight. Classic as far as I know is ALWAYS a 2 raise / 2 lower changer..i.e.
-Jon
_________________
MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo.
Last edited by Jon Schimek on 21 Mar 2019 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Bacciarini
From:
Arizona
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Posted 15 Mar 2019 12:51 pm
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In 1972 I bought an MSA Semi-Classic S-10 4+2. It was dieboard/mica with a very sturdy chassis. Weighed a ton, but very well constructed. Perhaps a "student model" as far as not being able to add more knees or an easy copedent change, but was certainly pro in build quality and playablity. Solid stops on floors and knees. Had a single coil pup that just was laying in the rout... that was kinda funky, and I always thought it sounded kind of thin. But hey, I had a real PSG! Seem to remember the tuners were Kluson’s (not real great) and I paid about $800 for it. At least it got me going.
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MCI Arlington S-10 3+5, George L E-66, BJS & Emmons bars, Fender Princeton 65W, Fender Satellite SFX, custom FX rack, 1983 Dobro 60D, SX-8 lap steel, Martin D16GT, Ibanez AS73, 1978 Rickenbacker 4000 custom. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Mar 2019 7:31 pm
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| Travis Egnor wrote: |
This is all pretty confusing. I have a “Classic†that, with the help of forum pals, I now know was made in Nov of 1976. It’s a maple guitar with lacquered/screened logos.
I guess this would not have been an “SS†as listed in the price list above...though, I guess that depends on the pickup, right? I’ve seen some guitars that say “Supersustain II†on them - mind does not. Also, my pickup has been changed to an E-66, which I like very much.
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Just a couple more important points:
The "Classic SS" model was a more compact guitar (smaller and lighter), on the order of an Emmons of the day. The "SS" designation meant "super small", and had nothing to do with the term "Super Sustain". (Hundreds of players have made that mistake.). Also, even though they were smaller, the scale on the "SS" guitars, at 24 inches, was identical to their other guitars. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2019 7:46 am
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Thanks Donny. Corrected my post above. At some point I had read that the scale was shorter and the keyheads were shorter giving a smaller body. Thanks for the info. I didn't really notice it much on the steel I had but also never really measured it.
_________________
MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 22 Mar 2019 12:42 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
The "SS" designation meant "super small", |
Just curious what XL stood for. Extra Large? Extra Long? My back will testify it doesn't mean Extra Light! And what made my Vintage XL "vintage" back then? |
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