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Topic: What Buddy Emmons Wrote About an E13th Tuning |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2019 7:09 pm |
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| Buddy Emmons wrote: |
posted 10 March 2000 07:43 AM
If I were to start today, the U12 would probably be my choice, but I'm not sure I would go with the universal tuning as we know it, not that I don't think it's a good way to go. When there are great players like Jeff Newman and Maurice Anderson, who have proven the viability of the U12, it would be foolish of me to suggest that it wouldn't be a good choice. But I think I would choose an alternate route that would cover the E9th and offer room to add and not take away from the sound.
It's no sin to not play the C6 tuning. Jay Dee told me he knew enough about the C6 tuning to fill a thimble, and I'm sure Lloyd.Green wouldn't hesitate to say as much in a different way. Yet it has never kept Jay Dee or Lloyd from being acknowledged as two of the finest players ever to have played the instrument.
So if I were starting out today and career minded, I'd probably go with a 13th tuning that would cover country, western swing, and with a little manipulation, jazz. That and a little musical training should get you through any studio job you'd ever have to tackle. Of course if you had limited musical training, you could flounder around until you're 63 and then start spouting out advice.
For pedals and knees, I would have eight on the floor and eight knees. Five of the eight knees (rights, lefts, and one vertical) would be the same as my E9th. They would also change some of the same strings I change on the C6 tuning of my D10. That would leave three remaining knee levers (LL, V, and LR) that would be positioned in the middle of the guitar as they are on my D10 (except there is no middle vertical on my D10). Pedals one through four, and five knees, would work the E13 tuning. Pedals five through eight, and five knees, would be for the E6th.
But I'm not starting out today, so the single twelve I have is leaning toward the C6 tuning again. I use two of the pedals for a whole tone raise of the G (5) and a half tone raise for the Es (2 & 6). I've been slipping some E9th style bends on some jazz tunes and it sounds pretty cool. I don't know where it will take me but it's different, which in turn makes me sound a little different, and I could use some of that.
When all is said and done though, the money is still in the gliss sound using one to three notes, and mostly on the top of the tuning; and for that, you can get by with eight strings or less and a creative mind. Long live Jerry Byrd! |
Found in the SGF Bar Chatter archive: https://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-008515.html
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2019 10:00 pm
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Would that be something similar to Zane Becks tuning? Or Red Rhodes?
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 2:44 am Re: What Buddy Emmons Wrote About an E13th Tuning
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| Buddy Emmons wrote: |
| You could flounder around until you're 63 and then start spouting out advice. |
Wonderful piece of self-deprecation!
From the introduction to his Basic C6 course it's clear that he always thought in terms of an E tuning. He introduces the C6 tuning by transposing it up a major third and then comparing it with E9, so that he likens E9 4th string to C6 3rd and so on, and the E9 major triad on 8, 6 & 5 to 7, 6 & 5 on C6 - and so on.
Out of the available bases for a uni tuning (E13, B6 and arguably A6) B6 is closest to the C6 voicing, which is why I think it has found the most favour.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 2:50 am
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| Its cool that he looked at an E13 on a S12 pedal steel as just a way of expanding the capabilities of an E9 tuning. Thanks for posting this Bob. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 5:23 am
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| Looking at all the great players with vastly different tunings I can conclude that we are far more limited by our playing abilities than by our copedants. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 5:45 am
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| I'm about the same age as Buddy would have been if still here (born the same year). I won't disagree with anything he has ever said. I will also agree that U12 would be my choice if I were starting out on Pedal Steel, today. At 81 there is no compelling reason to buy a new guitar and work on U12 (I hate single neck guitars, anyway). E9th and C6th will serve me until the end. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 6:31 am
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Chuck Back and Johnny Cox both played E13th 12-Stringers at the Pheonix Show this year.
They both sounded great! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 8:29 am Re: What Buddy Emmons Wrote About an E13th Tuning
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| Buddy Emmons wrote: |
posted 10 March 2000 07:43 AM
When all is said and done though, the money is still in the gliss sound using one to three notes, and mostly on the top of the tuning; and for that, you can get by with eight strings or less and a creative mind. Long live Jerry Byrd! |
The guy sure could pack a lot of wisdom in a few paragraphs. The parting shot wins it for me. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 10:48 am
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When Buddy spoke, you just had to pay attention.
I'm going to a center KL group for use with the guitar locked into B6, for a total of 8x8, kind of like Buddy describes. This maintains the full "one big tuning" from the standard three knees on the far left.
With the lock in, and left foot over P5 & P6, there will be 6x5 comfortably in reach, with all the functions of Buddy's C6 5x4 and then some.
I will document this project here when I get my parts from Mitsuo and finish setting it up.
Now I want another 12 string 7x5 to try Mr. Cox's D13 !
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 11:11 am
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What Chris describes is similar to my setup. The centre levers are B6 changes, giving you an E9 3+5 and a B6 5+5 rolled into one - all the basic changes from both tunings.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 12:33 pm
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Thanks for sharing that, b0b!
Big thanks to Johnny Cox for sharing his tuning in another thread here. Brilliant! |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 5:09 pm
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Speaking of the Big E, does anyone know what he had on the basketweave PP on the cover of the Rainbow album? I'm sure I saw it somewhere but haven't been able to find it here or on Ernie Renn's site. Perhaps it is in the old Steel Guitarist magazine b0b was giving to new members here when I joined?
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Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Jack Stanton
From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 6:38 pm
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Chris,
I'm pretty sure that copedant was listed in Winnie Winston's book.
My question is does anyone know (or best guess) what the other pedals and knees in this tuning Buddy was talking about? |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 6:49 pm
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Thanks, Jack. Unfortunately my copy of that valuable volume was borrowed by someone who left town before returning it to me, and I haven't got around to replacing it yet.
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Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 19 Feb 2019 11:18 pm
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Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E,
Last edited by Ken Byng on 20 Feb 2019 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 8:32 am
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| No doubt Buddy could "swing" with that 6th in the middle, since he did so much single string stuff without pedal changes. It's amazing the similarities in copedents, Zane's, Buddy's, Jeff's, Johnny's, b0b's etc when compared in numbers,,,like they say,,"there are just 12 notes",,so it's really just a matter of placement |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 11:12 am
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That's it, b0b.
My guess is that the guitar was built for ext. E9, and Buddy was exploring the possibilities of a pedal E13, concentrating on the middle of the tuning. Pity he didn't have an all pull with easy to change pulls and split screws available.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 11:23 am
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I am intrigued by this tuning, but it seems that having an extra string smack dab in the middle of the E9 set-up (the extra 6th interval) would wreck havoc on someone who's played normal E9 for a long time. Am I overthinking this? Maybe I'm just too old to take on the challenge.
I would have the same concerns regarding having an extra lower 9th interval on the C6th configuration. The re-learning curve could be fairly steep.
Also, there is no instruction material available for this tuning that I'm aware of, so it would be fairly hard for a newbie to start out with this tuning. The would have to transpose everything just to get started.
I suspect this tuning (as presented in Johnny Cox's thread) would be ideal for a younger player that has been playing for a few years, like puzzles, and has the energy and drive to make something better. This really could be the direction pedal steel needs to go.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 20 Feb 2019 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 11:30 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| Having an extra string smack dab in the middle of the E9 set-up would wreck havoc on someone who's played normal E9 for a long time. |
My feeling too. You'd have to be Buddy Emmons to cope. By the same token, the missing 9th string D on the B6/E9 setup is too much to contemplate if you're long used to having it there, but it has to be ditched if you want uninterrupted B6 grips.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 12:29 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
Here's Buddy's E13th from the Winnie Winston book (published in 1975):
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Wow! That may be a "comfortable" tuning for someone like Buddy, but I sure don't think I could wrap my head around it. I'm not seeing any (non-pedal) major triad groupings on adjoining strings (like we have on standard E9th, with strings 3,4,5, or 4,5,6) or even any regularly-spaced (non-pedal) triads (like we have on 6,8,10). That 5th string would make strums and sweeps a lot more challenging, and require some single-string mutes, which I really don't care for.  |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 12:46 pm
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Interesting, I had no idea at the time Buddy was doing this what his approach was. I played his S-12 and D-12 push pulls many times. I suppose something struck a chord with me back then subconsciously. I think Buddy would like my D13TH. It's really derived from an attempt to get E9th, E13th and C6th all in one tuning. I had all three on a triple neck Zum. Now as I look at the copedants from all three tunings I have everything in one tuning. Of course Buddy thought of it first, he thought of most everything we all do now first.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 1:10 pm
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Hey Johnny, you are just one of the next generation of pioneers, along with our own Bobby Lee. Someone has to move things forward now Buddy, Reese, Jeff, and so on are no longer with us. And one need not be young or new to the instrument to contribute.
I'll bet a lot of ideas come when you are wheeling that big fancy Peterbilt down the road. I know I spent a lot of time thinking about steel while driving before I retired. Exercise is good for your brain.
Be safe.
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Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Jack Stanton
From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
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Posted 20 Feb 2019 1:46 pm
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Johnny,
Am I wrong, or do you have to switch to the Day setup to make your tunning work? |
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