Emmons Push Pulls as an investment?

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

Ok...here is a fire starter...it has to do with GAS, (guitar acquisition syndrome)

What would be the opinion on buying Emmons PP's as an investment? Being investment would possibly pertain to getting more for it in the future than at purchase price. I know for certain that this is nearly impossible to predict..so much in the music world that affects the taste of the buying public, but just posing the question.

True, they are currently not being made.
True, have a steeper learning curve for maintenance.
Me: I absolutely love the tone and stage presence these old Emmons have..
I've recently acquired another..my opinion is I buy them for the joy they give me and am not primarily concerned with resale value, although when my playing days are over I'd like to think they would be worth something.. hard to have a operating crystal ball.. ( although if I did I probably would be driving a much nicer car or maybe something worse..) Thoughts?
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Old Emmons D-10's & Wrap Resound 65, Standel amps!
Old Gibson Mastertones

Bobby Nelson · From: North Carolina, USA

I don't know anybody who foresaw old Stratocasters going for $30,000 - $60,000 + back in the 80s when we were buying them in pawn shops for 3-5oo $$ - and Les Pauls for a hundred plus? Never in a million years, even though they sold for slightly more back then.

You have to wager on what you think the non-musician (for the most part) collectors are going to do, and how much expendable income they might have laying around in the future. That being said, all it takes is one Robert Randolph to become nationally renowned in a big way, or one of those said collectors who's eager to hit the ground floor of the next craze to start striking at them. Having been there for the guitar craze, this is my best guess at this question.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Investments are tricky, and it's hard sometimes to out-think the market. The only steels that have proven to be a good investment are the Franklin and Bigsby. All others have pretty much stayed the same when you consider present value vs. inflation. Demand has to be considered too, and I can't help but think that demand may drop when some of the older "hoarders" start to dump their collections. I've been collecting and dealing in the art-deco world for many years, and the younger people don't seem to care as much about age or cachet like the previous generations did. While it's true that most pedal steels have gone up in value over the last 5 years, I don't expect to see that trend to continue. Sooner or later, the market resets itself, and things stabilize for decade or so. At least, that's the way it's been for the last 50 years.

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

The market for nineteenth century banjos grew during the 80s too--prices went through the roof and it was a handful of guys about my age--in their 60s and 70s now, who hoarded these things and led to the escalating prices.

For years, they were a good investment, but guys who had counted on selling them for big bucks as retirement income have discovered that the market is still pretty much limited to aging boomers--many of whom are also trying to thin their herds. The millennials as a group seem to have neither the interest nor the money to buy these things.

I think steel guitars are like banjos in that they both appeal to a very narrow market, and would be much riskier investments than Strats or Martins which have a much broader market. (go ahead and flame me for the banjo comparison...)

Dave

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

it will take way more than one P Pull player on a national stage to drive the market UP. Strats had Hendrix, Stevie Ray and every other guitar player known to mankind as a ref or influence. Oh and that other English guy, Eric something or other...

P Pulls are excellent and maybe the older ones have specific value to certain players but overall not to the majority.

Buy a Push Pull because it's a fine Instrument that you will more than likely NOT lose money on. Is that considered an investment ? Sure, but not one for early retirement.
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jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

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Bill McCloskey · Posted 5 Feb 2019 9:40 am

Ask the people who invested in Scheerhorn dobros as a hedge against inflation.

Investing in instruments as a serious investment strategy is foolish.

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Here is an old discussion--->Click Here

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

Jamie Kitlarchuk · From: Alberta, Canada

As with anything, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I also play mandolin and notice that there are a lot of old timers who pride themselves in their collections. Over the next number of years, as some of these are put back into the market, I wonder how many younger folks will be willing to pay the amount that the seller might expect based on historical sale values.

A prime example is the Gibson F5 Loar era mandolin. Leading up to the 2007 recession, these were selling for more than a house in some areas ($200k plus). Some people were able to cash in on grandpa's old mandolin. Some people may have bought them thinking that the value will only keep going up because 'they aren't making any more of them'. Now you see them listed in the low to mid $100k range at some of the most reputable vintage dealers around... and they take a long time to sell (if they sell at all). The price seems to be going down every year for the past few years. Still a lot of money for a mandolin, but you can by a near exact copy from today's most reputable builders for a fraction of the cost, and you don't have to worry about locking it up every time you leave the house.

Obviously, I'm talking completely different instruments and values here, but my thought is that the pedal steel market is so small / niche, that collector value will be limited on most instruments.

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

meh... When we start to die off... well, actually, we have already started that phase, do you REALLY think that young guys are going to pay a hyper premium for an "outdated" design steel, when they can have the latest and greatest technology that stays in tune, plays soft and easy and looks great??... Its been going that way for YEARS now with 6 string guitars.

1960's instruments that were selling like hot cakes for $3000-4000 years ago are being dumped on the market today at $2000-3000 without a buyer in sight... Check vintage electrics on ebay.

Starting in the late 90's and for a solid 10 years afterward, Japanese buyers brought hundreds of thousands of USA built guitars back to japan in speculation of a vintage instrument market that was to about to explode worldwide- the sky was the limit.
I personally knew a guy that was invested deep in that market, and sold truckloads of high end vintage stuff to Japan. Pallet loads.

Now those same buyers are on ebay trying to off load those guitars back here at a loss, and are failing.. Us, the generation that got STUPID over old guitars, are just not buying them, and the young guys that play guitar don't have much interest, and really, why should they??.. None of their "heroes" played a 1953 Fender Broadcaster.

I had a collection of stuff that was the envy of many who saw it,, Money wise, I lost on some , gained on a few, broke even on most.... wasn't worth the effort for the most part, and I doubt it will be on emmons PP pedal steels either.. Unless you can find a LOT of them selling under wholesale.. good luck with that... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

Ah come on Bob you saying this don’t look good😜😜

But can’t argue about anything you said, seems kinda bleak for the near future of steel guitar... like to hear all of this just kind of out things in perspective
Nothing ever stay the same of that I can be sure
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Old Emmons D-10's & Wrap Resound 65, Standel amps!
Old Gibson Mastertones

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

Ah for the old days...Back in the late 70's, Knoxville was getting ready to host a Worlds Fair. Part of the preparation included running a lot of long-time downtown businesses out via high rents. One of these businesses was a pawn shop that had been around for at least 50 years.

I was working construction at the time, and our company had a little warehouse right next to a warehouse where that pawn shop stored all of the stuff that was too outdated and out of demand to take up space in their store. They had a big warehouse sale to liquidate.

Oh if I had any disposable income back then--old tube amps (Valcos, Dearmonds, Gretsch, Epiphone, etc. No Fenders) were $5 apiece. There were literally hundreds of steel guitars--mostly lap, but a few pedal steels too. Also $5.

Now to the point of this rant--My boss bought a dumptruck load of steel guitars for $100 as an investment. Our dumptruck was a pretty good sized one too! I'd guess there were more than a hundred old guitars in there. Given that Knoxville was pretty heavy steel guitar country back in those days, there were some awfully good guitars in that dumptruck.

Don't know what ever became of the guitars or whether the investment paid off. Probably didn't make the boss's wife very happy. I know for sure there were some Rick Fry Pans and Bakelites, Some National New Yorkers and some Sho Buds in there. What else? Who knows. Of course if I had been better off financially at the time, my current downsizing effort would have been much more difficult.

Dave

Bobby Nelson · From: North Carolina, USA

AllI can think is this: If you have the jack to buy now at very reasonable prices (say 2-4 thou? I'm not sure what you can get them for right now), and you stock pile some number of them, and they do go to over 10 thou a piece, you'll be in the good - or, you'll wind up with a garage full of cool pedal steels haha.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Drew Pierce · From: Arkansas, USA

This question, in some form or another, applies to so many things -- cars, motorcycles, etc. But with respect to musical instruments, it always seemed a shame that collector/speculators (hoarders?) often price the great vintage instruments out of the reach of people who would actually play them.
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Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.

Tiny Olson · From: Mohawk River Valley, Upstate NY

George:

If that latest Emmons you mention acquiring is the one I think it is, you made a good investment there. If your collection brings you joy, then you've made good investments toward your quality of life.

I'd like to acquire a '66 Bolt-on D-10 in addition to my '69 Rosewood and LeGrande D-10s. But I keep buying more fishing gear and new gadgets and electronics for my bass-boat. That's my investment toward my happiness and quality of life. I carry enough rods & lures in my 21' bass-boat to stock a tackle store. I don't really need all that (did I say that..??) but it makes me happy and I'm not in debt at all. So, for me, the investments I make toward my bass-fishing passion are well worth the cost.

Financially speaking, your investments, overall, are probably somewhat better than mine, regarding Emmons guitars and Bass-boats in retaining value.

Let me know how you like that "new" horn. All the best and ENJOY..!!!

Chris "Tiny" O.

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

Ukes have come back as you probably already know. Because of their popularity, alot of cheap ones are being made. Also the vintage high end ones have become real pricey. If ukes can do it then why not steel? Of course you don't need amps of all kinds of gadgets which is partly why the Ukes have become popular in recent years. 23 skidoo!
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Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

It's been equity mutual funds for me, since the 1980s.

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

George,, it looks GREAT!,, to me, you, and our forum mates... However, in 25 years when most of us are star dust, will some young player want to spend say 20 grand ... bob[/quote]

Yup...star dust..in the real inner sense of music and passion for it, we never really own anything. I've got several Pre War Gibson banjos that have long outlived their original owners..my job essentially is to care for, play, and pass on to the next generation.. we are just stewards..(my prediction is in the next ten years there will be large number of steel guitars that families and or widows have to deal with.. the circle of life)

Appreciate the current comments..live in the present and slow down the monment..seems to go by ever more rapidly.
These old Emmons push pulls have gut and character that I enjoy immneseley..I thinks the same will be true as our craft moves onward to the future.
_________________
Old Emmons D-10's & Wrap Resound 65, Standel amps!
Old Gibson Mastertones

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

Tiny Olson · From: Mohawk River Valley, Upstate NY

Cool George. I'm glad it went where it did..!!

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

If your name is David Gilmour, the steel guitar you played on Dark Side Of The Moon will probably sell for more than the house where Tex Nobody keeps his.
https://www.christies.com/features/David-Gilmour-legendary-Black-Strat-comes-to-auction-9637-3.aspx

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Buy a push/pull for the pleasure of playing and listening to a great-sounding classic design, not as an investment.

If you really wanna invest, look at Beanie Babies. The price has never been lower.

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