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Topic: Adding a dedicated lever/pedal for Faux C6? |
Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 5 Jan 2019 12:54 pm |
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I've started looking at is all the C6 voicings that are found scattered in Country music, and these two questions came to mind that I'd like to pose to the Forum:
If you were going to add a lever/pedal dedicated to C6 voicings, what would those changes be?
With that dedicated pedal, where would you place that pedal/lever on your guitar?
I know a bit of the Faux C6 can already be found on the guitar - but I'm curious how y'all would pull more from it. I've got a great 4x6 steel S-10, so I have room to experiment. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 5 Jan 2019 4:29 pm
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Speaking as a uni player, really the only thing lacking on the E9 with the Es lowered is a half-step drop on string 7. With that on a 4th pedal you could get a lot of C6 sounds.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 5 Jan 2019 9:20 pm
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Do a forum google search for the late great Al Marcus Lean and Mean tuning for a 10 string E neck. Circa 2002 iirc... (eg forum archives)
b0b has an awesome 10 string "mini Universal tuning" as well that he would no doubt repost. That would be the direction I would go if I had an S10
I have a very condensed Uni tuning on a 5x5 platform that I published a few times on the forum. It is for a 12 string and do not know how it would condense to a 10 string. But there are some ideas in there on how to make the absolute best use of limited real estate.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 5 Jan 2019 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 5 Jan 2019 10:54 pm
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I've seen Mike Sigler demonstrate his Faux C6th setup on his single neck E9th steel. He stated he found it beneficial when flying to lots of his performances - as opposed to having to carry a D10 steel.
I don't see Mike make many posts on The Forum, but he could probably be reached thru his Facebook page. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 6 Jan 2019 3:06 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| ...the only thing lacking on the E9 with the Es lowered is a half-step drop on string 7... |
You can mimic C6 pedal 5 on E9 if you use A&B pedals for the root 6 chord, two frets up from the Es-lowered root chord. Adding the E lower drops that 5th tone for a II9, it's the same voicing but one string over.
The same thing three frets up gives basically the same middle voicing as pedal 6 on the root fret on C6, a IV9. You can move voices with the A&B pedals in this position too, the open notes are diatonic.
Benjamin, you might consider adding a string 6 whole step raise G#-A# on your 4th pedal, place it next to your A pedal (-0- position if you play Emmons pedals). Combined with the A pedal it gives you a very useful II7 chord in the "open" E9 position, lots of melodic options, but also provides the equivalent of C6 pedal 7 when the Es are lowered. This is a unique C6 sound that is otherwise difficult to mimic on E9.
If you want to go all-in, you might consider tuning your strings 9-10 to G# and B like a uni and ditch the D string (adjust string gauges accordingly). I find this much more useful, you can still get the D on a lever when needed. You can always change it back.
The thing that standard 10 string E9 lacks is the low notes. I've actually been experimenting with string 10 tuned all the way down to E and I really like it. I'm using a .048", it's the same as low E on a six string, and pulled up to A on the B pedal. It works surprisingly well, not too stiff or long with the right adjustment. With Es on 4&8 lowered it is the equivalent of the low F on C6 (string 11 on a uni). It also allows for some nice six string-style power chords on the open bottom three strings, root-fifth-root. Work the A pedal for the classic rock and roll cliche rhythm guitar sound.
And none of this will have any effect on your ability to play standard E9 twang all night long. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Jan 2019 4:36 pm
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Ian, I agree you can mimic that P5 chord in the way you say, but only in isolation. You can't copy the movement in and out of it.
I agree though that there should be some P7 capability also. In fact I'm going to upgrade my original advice - Get a uni! Then you don't have to fake anything 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 6 Jan 2019 4:53 pm
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My coped has g# to a# on a lever and it has a well used place on E9 playing and even more on B6.
With the D string removed.. you slide back 2 frets and engage that lever and the A pedal to get the same voice as the D G# and B grip in E9.
Its a must have on on a Uni variation. Imo.
I like it more on a knee than next to the A pedal... because I often use it to raise the B pedal A to A#.
Overall it is very difficult for any Uni to replace a D10 with a loaded C6 coped though.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 6 Jan 2019 7:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 6 Jan 2019 5:33 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| ...you can mimic that P5 chord in the way you say, but only in isolation. You can't copy the movement in and out of it... |
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "only in isolation". If your root 6 chord is formed by the A&B pedals down, the movement in and out is simply engaging and releasing the E lower, same as engaging and releasing P5 on C6. I use this all the time.
I tend to use the pedals down A6 as primary on my S10 for getting C6-ish sounds, the Es-lowered B6 position secondarily, where you might want/need the one lower chord voice. On an E9 guitar without the B6 pedals there aren't that many situations where it provides an advantage. But yes, if for some reason you had to be in the B6 position with Es lowered leading into that faux P5 change, then yes, you would have to switch strings/positions.
It's a different mindset on a uni, where you actually have the C6 pedals. Then you would tend to keep the Es lowered in most situations and approach it the same as you would a C6 neck. A uni would certainly give the OP a lot more options, but all he was asking for was some ideas to maximize what he can get on his 4x6 10 string E9 git. |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 7 Jan 2019 3:03 am
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| There are lots of cool C6 sounding licks on the E9, but one I never hear is the C6 7 pedal lick for a major 9 chord. I'd love to figure out how to get that on the top neck. |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 7 Jan 2019 11:30 am
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Thank you for all the replys so far.
I'm not looking to convert my traditional E9 pulls into a Universal 10 string, as most of what I play is either country or gospel.
These ideas are helping me out a lot actually.
For some background, I'm running the standard changes on A, B, and C pedals with a Franklin as my forth. Knees are pretty standard - with B to Bb on the vertical. My LKL2 is a 1/2 step lower on string 3, and a 1 1/2 step raise on sting 6. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2019 11:35 am
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| Bob Watson wrote: |
| There are lots of cool C6 sounding licks on the E9, but one I never hear is the C6 7 pedal lick for a major 9 chord. I'd love to figure out how to get that on the top neck. |
I used to have that on my Ext E9th. Got the idea from Winnie Winston. It's a pedal that raises strings 5 and 6 a whole step. In addition to its use as a faux P7 with E's lowered, it gave me some nice country licks using string 7 (F#) as the root note.
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 7 Jan 2019 1:31 pm
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| Bob Watson wrote: |
| There are lots of cool C6 sounding licks on the E9, but one I never hear is the C6 7 pedal lick for a major 9 chord. I'd love to figure out how to get that on the top neck. |
On a standard E9 setup with D on string 9 you have that chord available, at least the upper voices of the P7 change (strings 6-5-4-3-2 on C6), but you can't transition in and out smoothly like you can with P7 on C6. You have to switch one voice from string 8 to string 9.
For example, at fret 7 with pedals down you have E6 on strings 10-8-7-6-5-4-3, slide up to fret 9 and release the A pedal and you have the same P7 EMaj9 on strings 10-9-7-6-5, the same voicings as you would find on the upper strings at fret 4 on C6.
I don't have a D on 9 (it's B), so I lower 8 a whole tone to D along with string 2 on a knee, no half stop. This actually allows you to mimic that nice smooth transition of the P7 change, the same notes as above but without having to switch between string 8 and 9. From pedals down I release the A pedal, lower 8 a whole tone and simultaneously slide up 2 frets. It's all there on strings 9-8-7-6-5. I also have the G#-A# change mentioned above on P0 though. It's much more useful for this purpose. |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 7 Jan 2019 2:03 pm
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| Bob, Ian, thanks for the info. I've pondered how to get the 7 pedal in/out sound on E9 for quite some time and never come up with a solution. It seems that I saw a video of Milo Deering playing an Emmons C6 tune off of the black album on E9 and somehow getting the 7 pedal lick, I'll bet he had that change you were talking about Bob, or perhaps the way you were getting it Ian. You guys have given me some ideas to think about if I decide to change some knee levers around. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2019 9:59 am
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| Bob Watson wrote: |
| how to get the 7 pedal in/out sound on E9 |
This sound of P7 on open strings C6
moved up to this sound at fret 4 of C6
is available on standard E9 open strings 2,4,5,6 using C pedal and D lever. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2019 10:01 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Speaking as a uni player, really the only thing lacking on the E9 with the Es lowered is a half-step drop on string 7. With that on a 4th pedal you could get a lot of C6 sounds. |
The sounds of C6 P5 and P7 are available on E9 if you have G# to A# raise on a "zero pedal", and lower string 7 F# to E# as I do on RKL half-stop.
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 8 Jan 2019 1:44 pm
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| Earnest, thanks a lot for your input. I don't know how that eluded me for so long, I guess I couldn't see the forest cause of the trees. |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 9 Jan 2019 2:02 pm
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I like where this thread has gone.
Adding the G# to A# won't be too hard to mess with, I think a pedal on the left side of the 'A' pedal is the most logical space after I'm finished messing around.
I was down on the guitar a few minuets ago, and the lower strings tuned down sound pleasant. Shifting to a modified universal may be a possibility, I just need to let go of that 'D' string.
I appreciate the discussion. |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 30 May 2019 11:08 am
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It's been a few months, and I've gained quite a bit of insight on the C6th that I'm looking to play.
Here is my Copedent as it developed following this thread. Its now a short stacked UNI with 5p6k, 9th string "D" removed, and a G# at the bass.
Coming back to this thread, I forgot how many recommended the G# to A# change being over on pedal 0 (left of A). That is something I may have to tinker with again, but I have it over on pedal 5 (where you would normally see C6th Pedal 4). This Copedent feels good, but I'm sure there is more I can pull out of it, or be more efficient with now that I've started to really adopt a Universal tuned mindset.
Any suggestions, I'd like to hear from you guys. In particular LKL2, Pedal 0 and Pedal 5 would be the most likely places for me to adapt things to.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 May 2019 5:29 pm
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Benjamin,
I often use the E9th's D string as the root of a DMaj7 chord with pedals down, or D6th with the B pedal. Lowering the 7th string to F on the same lever that gives you a D note (your RKR) totally ruins that usage.
Also, while the F# to F is an essential B6th change, changing the B note along with it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
My suggestion is to abandon those triple raises on LKL2 and put the 7th string F# to F there. Then lower the 8th string E to D on RKR (instead of raising B). Those are the two most essential B6th changes. They are the "home position" P5 and P6 of the C6th copedent.
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 31 May 2019 7:32 am
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b0b,
Thanks for the starting point, which is why I always come back to this site in the first place. And being to quickly understand why Universals have as many pedals as they do.
The 7th string F change has to move, for sure.
I will need to locate a spot for the 8th string E to D change. Now, on that note, It seems strange to lower the E to D vise raising the B to D and G# to B and maintain the E9th grip equivalent of 6,8, and 10 with string 7 and 9 available. Am I missing something in this thought process?
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2019 10:39 am
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Some U-12 players have both. The lowering of middle D# to D is essential for the B6th position. It not only changes major to minor, it also turns the tuning into a thumb-sweepable 9th chord (the IV 9th).
Similarly, lowering the F# to F (a.k.a. E#) gives you the II 9th chord (C#9). Using both together is the most common diminished chord position. Those two changes are the most used pedals on the C6th (P5 and P6). They are the essence of C6th style of playing.
Actually, you should put F# to F on your P5, so that you can use it with LKR. It's much more important than G# to A# in my opinion. Here's what I suggest for minimal changes to your existing copedent:
The P5 lower of string 3 to G could instead be a raise of string 1 to G, if you want to keep that string 3 lower change on LKL2.
_________________
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Last edited by b0b on 31 May 2019 11:33 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 31 May 2019 10:56 am
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b0b, thanks again.
Gives me something to tinker with this weekend if nothing else.
Edit: Just noticed the appended copedent b0b- I'll be back under the guitar this evening for sure.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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Paul Pearson
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 31 May 2019 11:24 am Faux c6 lever
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| Bob I have to agree with you on the 9th string I can't play with out the 9tj string here a few weeks I traded for uni straight up got it changed to day setup and began to tinker with it ever time I would go for my 9th string it didn't work out in my single note playing it was always of the pull up and down never was in time I have been trying to faux some c6 sounds in to my e9 s10 this post has helped some but no where where I want to be for instance take Randy Beavers he's the best I have every seen or heard and he dose it all on standard E9 with the 9th string I play mostly gospel and don't think theirs a song that I don't use that 9th string some where in it and by the way I've changed the uni to extended e9 more comfortably their |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2019 11:32 am
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I hear you, Paul. I played an extended E9th for many years. That big interval between E and B never felt right to me either. But a lot of people make it work, including our hero Jeff Newman, so I can't dismiss it. It's just not for me, I guess. 
Sorry for all the edits, Benjamin. I just got carried away. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 3 Jun 2019 8:55 am
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b0b, thanks for your input over the last few days. It's helping me put things together a little better.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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