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Topic: Negative revue regarding Milkman amps |
David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 1 Jan 2019 12:50 pm |
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| Just finished reading a rather scathing revue on the 'Musicians Friend' site and cannot for the life of me begin to understand where this party gathered the facts that he has posted. Being the proud owner of two of Tim's amps, a 'Half and Half' head, (which was the subject of the revue), and a pedal steel 'Mini'. I can honestly state that in my estimation, the opinions stated in the revue could not be further from the truth. Both of my units have been both reliable as well as delivering great tone. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 1 Jan 2019 1:44 pm
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His views (and yours) are strictly opinions. Neither is wrong.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Larry Carlson
From:
My Computer
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Posted 1 Jan 2019 2:48 pm
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.
Opinions are not facts.
If they were I'd be the smartest guy on the planet........ 
Hmmm.........just maybe....... 
_________________
I have stuff.
I try to make music with it.
Sometimes it works.
Sometimes it doesn't.
But I keep on trying. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Cartwright Thompson
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Posted 1 Jan 2019 3:45 pm
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Last edited by Cartwright Thompson on 2 Jan 2019 1:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 1 Jan 2019 5:12 pm
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| Greg..Yes, that is the one. |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 1 Jan 2019 10:17 pm
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I own this amp and love it. My experience is completely opposite of the MF reviewer.
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 Jan 2019 1:25 am
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Dnt ndrstnd. When I click on Greg's link I get an Afterglow fx unit.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 2 Jan 2019 2:42 am
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I bet the MF reviewer is a rocker who is most interested in how loud it gets. MF should have made it clear in the advertising that this amp is for clean tone, like for a steel guitar or jazz guitarist.
Another problem is MM's advertising says the amp scales up to 300 watts. But at what impedance? I'm guessing it's 300 watts at 4 ohms. If that's the case, what is the output at 8 ohms, or 16 ohms? I wonder what impedance speaker cabinet the MF reviewer was using.
More clarity in the advertising would probably avoid these problems, but it might reduce sales.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 2 Jan 2019 10:55 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Chris Boyd
From:
Leonia,N.J./Charlestown,R.I.
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 2 Jan 2019 7:23 pm
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Done
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2019 9:18 pm
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A few thoughts -
Agreed completely regarding opinions. Also, customer service difficulties are posted FAR more on seller and/or anonymous forums - and rarely on specialized, real-name forums like this one. There are FAR more problems with personal backlash on forums like this one, especially when boutique products are involved, with builders are often on a first-name basis with *some* buyers.
The seemingly-shocked reactions to and protests against a review "somewhere else" with spotty specifics are good examples - and no offense, so are comments like assumptions about that buyer's style and expectations (since the amp type is generally very atypical for "rock guitarists").
It's obvious the buyer doesn't understand power vs "output level" and that design, output stage type and so on are far more important (Class D 300 W power amps typically drive Acme low-B Bass cabinets, for example, to barely Deluxe Reverb volume levels)
OTOH this is not the first time I have heard about support response (or lack thereof) issues - one involving a member of this forum, another on an amp forum. Neither buyer wanted to voice complaints publicly because of expectation of backlash - I simply received requests for advice, i.e. "what should I do"?" via email.
I don't know whether Milkman is a one man operation or if there is a staff of 20 or more. I've never heard one of the amps in person. But regardless of some great reports here, the apparent "boutique" level of the business indicates fairly limited sales volume. And hearing about 3 different tech issues (each accompanied by support complaints) doesn't raise my confidence level - or interest - in the product line.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 2 Jan 2019 10:42 pm
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...since the amp type is generally very atypical for a "rock guitarist."
Exactly. Why would a rock guitarist buy such an amp? Perhaps because he was a little bit uninformed, and he focused on "300 watts." Is that such an illogical theory? Look at the other amps the MF reviews talks about. Those are both rock amps. Look at his principle complaint about the Milkman; it's not loud enough.
Who mislead him? Both Musician's Friend and Milkman Sound. It you advertise an amp as 300 watts without any further clarification, you better be ready for your amp to be compared to similar power level amps, such as are available from Mesa Boogie or Marshall or Ampeg SVT, etc. I don't have any experience with this model Milkman, but it appears to not have those sorts of stadium level capabilities.
The MF reviewer should be allowed to return the amp and get his money back.
PS: I do own a Milkman Mini, which is a great amp, and it is a one man operation.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 1:26 am
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there is no check and balance with these reviews, anyone can write one at any time. MF, Sweetwater, Amazon..etc...There is no proof of purchase required. If a few folks want to write a positive review following this one, they can. To me as stated above, the issue is it's not loud enough and the user, if indeed he bought one, was expecting something much greater than a 40 watt HR Deluxe.
Jim's specification analysis is accurate, the only thing that I would add is that the common man BUYS by specifications, we don't research WHY the specs are applied to a specific product.
Milkman owners/users can write an alternative review directly underneath the one discussed.
I read reviews all the time ( we all do) regarding users experiences for various items. Some make no sense, whether they be a 5 star or NO star rating. Try reading some power tool reviews , in a NY minute you can tell if the reviewer is a person with TOOL experience or a first time buyer/user. "This drill is junk, it doesn't have enough power to go thru 1" Steel"...and they would be correct.
Then we have reviews written by what I call sour grapes " This CV Telecaster is 10 x better than any USA Telecaster don't waste your money on a USA Tele". Thats not a review, it's an opinion based on emotions.
Like many here I also write reviews often, I try to be fair and accurate , based on my opinion.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 9:20 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
...since the amp type is generally very atypical for a "rock guitarist."
Exactly. Why would a rock guitarist buy such an amp? Perhaps because he was a little bit uninformed, and he focused on "300 watts." Is that such an illogical theory? Look at the other amps the MF reviews talks about. Those are both rock amps. Look at his principle complaint about the Milkman; it's not loud enough.
Who mislead him? Both Musician's Friend and Milkman Sound. It you advertise an amp as 300 watts without any further clarification, you better be ready for your amp to be compared to similar power level amps, such as are available from Mesa Boogie or Marshall or Ampeg SVT, etc. I don't have any experience with this model Milkman, but it appears to not have those sorts of stadium level capabilities.
The MF reviewer should be allowed to return the amp and get his money back.
PS: I do own a Milkman Mini, which is a great amp, and it is a one man operation. |
Doesn't MF have a pretty good return policy? If it was as bad as the reviewer says, he could return it, if within the return period.
Plus, remember that most posted reviews are placed by unhappy customers. Take Yelp for example. The reviews for restaurants is probably 10 bad to 1 good review.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 10:20 am
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Negative review...who care what other people think? If I had a dollar for every time someone here on the forum said something negative about what I use, I could take a nice vacation.  |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 1:02 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
OTOH this is not the first time I have heard about support response (or lack thereof) issues - one involving a member of this forum, another on an amp forum. Neither buyer wanted to voice complaints publicly because of expectation of backlash - I simply received requests for advice, i.e. "what should I do"?" via email.
I don't know whether Milkman is a one man operation or if there is a staff of 20 or more. I've never heard one of the amps in person. But regardless of some great reports here, the apparent "boutique" level of the business indicates fairly limited sales volume. And hearing about 3 different tech issues (each accompanied by support complaints) doesn't raise my confidence level - or interest - in the product line. |
I respond to every single email for technical questions I receive. Some people message me via social media though. Nothing I can do about that. Those messages rarely see the light of day because they are filtered out into a junk folder.
There is a very specific explanation of warranty on my website, which covers repairs and all of my dealers take returns and on top of that there is a contact form on my website which goes directly to my personal email. There is also a phone number where I can take voicemails and receive texts. If people can not get ahold of me, I am not sure what more I can offer unless they want to visit me in person.
I appreciate that you are giving advice Jim, but the best advice you can give someone who is having a problem with a Milkman would be to contact me via my website www.milkmansound.com or through one of my dealers. Random messages sent to Facebook, Instagram, etc go into a junk folder never to be seen again.
Milkman is a one man shop, and I do the best I can to support several thousand customers. Its not an easy gig. But it could be worse... I could be running a restaurant and fielding complaints about a Yelp review.
It sounds like the Half and Half was not a good match for this customer. Hopefully he returned it and got something he liked better. 300 watts sounds like a big number but its actually only slightly louder than a 50 watt amp. Steel guitar players get that, guitar players seem to expect 300 watts to melt glass
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 3:45 pm
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I have no respect for anonymous review-culture whatsoever! I do however value opinions from trusted sources - like from getting to ‘know’ people on forums like this.
I have not yet had an issue with my Milkman (bought The Amp recently) but I couldn’t say more about Tim’s quick replies to my several emailed questions about power, tone, and more before I bought. And after too! |
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 4:01 pm
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Ive owned a half and half, and a mini.
I got a very quick response from Tim when I had a question.
It’s been my experience that gear reviews from six stringers aren’t always relevant to us Steelers. |
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Wayne Ledbetter
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 4:16 pm Tim and Milkman
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I happen to read this thread and I can tell you that from my experience, Tim has been very responsive and helpful with my emails. I haven't had the privledge of owning one of his products but I have looked at posts of sales here and on his site. From what I can tell he seems to run a good outfit and has happy customers. Right now I have a Twin reissue that I acquired several years ago but I would consider his products based on my past communication and reports I have seen. Keep up the good work, Tim.
_________________
Sho Bud Super Pro, Fender Twin Reissue, Martin HD-28, Gibson J-45, Gibson RB-250,Stelling Bellflower,Regal Dobro, Takamine and Alvarez Classical, Fender Telecaster, Peavey Studio Pro 112. Mainly played Gospel and some bluegrass. |
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Tom Dillon
From:
La Mesa, California, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 6:32 pm
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| I put in a review on the Musician's Friend MMHH listing. First review I've ever done. It's my honest opinion. I've used a MMHH head since May '17. It's a great amp. I like my Stereo Steel also and use both amps all the time. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 10:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| Exactly. Why would a rock guitarist buy such an amp? |
And where did it say the buyer was a "rocker?" NOWHERE except in YOUR "I bet MF reviewer is a rocker..." assumption - which was exactly my point. You have no clue who he truly is and assumptions like that are nothing but foot-stomping noise.
Thanks for reinforcing how useless such assumptions are. Especially when made twice.
Tim, thanks for your comments, and I appreciate how tough it can be for a one-man shop to provide tech support. I can only say that the situations I heard about personally involved direct contact - not postings or anonymous website messages.
Thanks for clarifying the point regarding output power and volume. This is an issue I encounter regularly in tech work and almost daily in providing advice on amp-related websites. It's probably THE most misunderstood piece of "buyer criteria" involving amplifiers and has been for decades.
Sadly, reviewers and writers in many guitar magazines do little if anything to educate shoppers about it - many do exactly the opposite and simply reinforce the "more watts=more volume" misconception.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Steve Mueller
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 10:16 pm
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I've got 2 Milkman Mini's and they're wonderful amps. With NOS tubes there's no other amp that sounds like that for steel. Tim's service is top notch.
_________________
2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 3 Jan 2019 11:36 pm
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The MF reviewer strongly implied that he was a rocker when he listed the amps that he used to compare against the Milkman, (a Matchless and a Hot Rod Deluxe III). And when his chief complaint about the amp (not the tech support issue) was it was not loud enough. And when he talked about the amp not being clean at higher volumes, which no one has ever expressed before when describing that amp (which means to me he was probably dimeing it. (Oops, there I go again making an assumption.)
So what do we now have a Jim Sliff rule on this forum that no one is entitled to express an opinion if they are using well reasoned assumptions? Only hard scientifically prove facts are allowed? Is that what everybody wants? I already know Mr. Sliff's opinion. (Oops, there's another one.)
I'm done. You know the bit about wrestling the pig.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 4 Jan 2019 1:04 am
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interesting thread to say the least. It appears to me that Tim is doing all he can to communicate and make good but in some scenario's that is never quite enough. We've seen this first hand in our family business. Sometimes a small item where someone was not happy, I have told them they can KEEP the item and get a 100% refund and they still argued. Over $20.
Regarding the amps, I'm not a rocker , but I can be, I use HR Deluxes all the time , I'm a country boy!
I've also never been able to explain to anyone ( where it sunk in ) that 100 watts in not 2x as loud a 50 watts. I'm a schooled, degree'd electronics guy. RCA tube red book was my initial guide ( still have it from the 60 's)
Quite frankly many of those rockers are using 50 watt plexi's rather than 100 watt plexi's as the tone/drive they are seeking actually exists on the 50 watter but may not on the 100 watter ! Its got nothing to do with output volume. My buddies who used them told me that they can play louder with the 50's, and they would be right.
try explaining that !
We have thread participants right here on our beloved forum that say their 100 watt Katana will blow the doors off a building, or something like that. Uhh..no it won't .
So we have the same issue right here, at home base.
Best to Tim as he journeys through the Forest making his mark !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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