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Topic: $1,000 Maverick Re-Visited |
Dave White
From:
Fullerton, California USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2005 10:59 pm |
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| I just received notification from Ebay that I now have a strike against me for not buying the overpriced Maverick. I know some of you guys sent messages to the seller telling him it wasn't worth it, but he oviously didn't care about that. Ebay is apparently more on the side of the seller than the buyer. I have appealed the strike, but don't hold out much hope for it to be reversed. On a happier note, I bought a nice BMI S-10 from Jim Palenscar(Steel Guitars of North County in Oceanside CA) yesterday, and it WAS worth the money. Jim's a great guy and I would recommend him to anyone looking to buy a pedal or lap steel guitar. It's worth the trip no matter how far you have to drive. |
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jim milewski
From:
stowe, vermont
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 3:49 am
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| hope the appeal with eBay works out for you, just be happy you got the BMI rather than the Maverick, were you the winning bidder? |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 3:58 am
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Interestingly, Maverick listings have shot up on eBay following that 'sale.' Everybody wants to cash in.
But you did the right thing by going to Jim Palenscar. Such a better guitar.
I don't really think a strike against you will matter a lot. It's only eBay. |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 5:02 am
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| Quote: |
| I don't really think a strike against you will matter a lot. It's only eBay. |
Right. Not quite a "rap sheet". Just don't include it on your resume if you apply for a new job.... 
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 5:40 am
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| Quote: |
| "Ebay is apparently more on the side of the seller than the buyer." |
That's not true. They have their rules. They don't care if an item is overpriced or underpriced. If you place a bid, you are required to honor your bid. No different than any auction.
Your best course of action is to put a polite response to your negitive feedback, stating your reason for not following thru.
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 5:49 am
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Joey is correct..
regardless of how much the transaction cost is..or the selling price...
the policy is..you win..you buy..you pay..
the final sales price is not part of the equation. It never is...
Word to the Wise..as always..
know what you are bidding on and the value...
Sellers have the right to sell anything they want at any price they want...
But...it's not the end of the world....
The EBAY Police are not coming to anyones home to collect...
Place a comment in the negative feedback reply box as to the reason why you backed out and move on..
but next time...... |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 7:43 am
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| However (I didn't see the listing)- if the buyer claimed that what he was selling was a $2400 value, as I recall you saying, David, he should be popped for false advertising unless he can substantiate that claim. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 8:13 am
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Here is the link to that ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7361534121&fromMakeTrack=true
I think that this part of the description is clearly not accurate:
ITEM: PROFESSIONAL SINGLE NECK 4 PEDAL STEEL GUITAR
Nowhere on the ad is the name "Maverick" or "Student Model" mentioned. My read of that "Item" bullet is that this is a "Professional" Model Sho Bud. It is not. The $2400 value is also absurd (IMO), but not so blatantly false as the "Professional" tag. The seller, perhaps accidentally, confused the issue by using a known Sho Bud model name that simply doesn't fit.
I belive contract law calls this a "mistake", there is no contract. The seller has a responsibility to accurately describe the item. It doesn't matter whether or not the seller did it knowingly, IMO. If an inaccurate description leads a buyer to make a mistake, I believe it invalidates any notion of contract. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe this is an advanced law issue. Myself, I would argue this line with ebay.
| Quote: |
| the policy is..you win..you buy..you pay.. |
I agree that you can't back out just because you think you paid too much after winning. But if info comes to light that the item is not what was described, I disagree.
If they rule against you, I wouldn't sweat it. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 8:45 am
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| You can certainly file your own negative comment about the seller. It was clearly false advertising. Does Ebay allow any and all kinds of false claims from sellers? |
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Mike Winter
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 8:57 am
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I think it's all semantics. The professional tag is mentioned in the item, not the brand or model. It is professional in that it was made by a "professional" company, Sho-Bud. That's what they did, they got paid to make pedal steel guitars, of which that was one. Yes it's a low end model, but made by a professional company none the less.
I would do the appeal and state your case. I'd also put a comment in the feedback section as well.
In my opinion,the seller was less than honest, but I think this is an ethical issue rather than a legal one. Too bad.
On a lighter note,I'm sure you'll be very happy with your new axe...it'll surely take you farther.
Now, I need to unload MY Maverick on ebay. If I can get $450 or so, I'll be a happy camper. Don't worry, I'll advertise it right.  |
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Jack Mansfield
From:
Reno, NV
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 9:01 am
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| I have an ebay strike against me, I just snuffed it off and keep on bidding when I see something I want. Hasn't affected anything!! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 10:12 am
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Mike, I disagree. It doesn't say the company was a professional company. It says this:
ITEM: PROFESSIONAL SINGLE NECK 4 PEDAL STEEL GUITAR
BRAND: SHO-BUD
In toto, this reads "SHO-BUD PROFESSIONAL SINGLE NECK 4 PEDAL STEEL GUITAR". It's easy to see how this could lead a buyer to believe that steel is something that it is not. A contract is based on mutual understanding between two parties. There was none here, pure and simple. IMO, there was a mistake in the contract.
As far as whether this is not a legal contract matter, here is the statement from the seller's page:
"Your bid is a contract - Place a bid only if you're serious about buying the item. If you are the winning bidder, you will enter into a legally binding contract to purchase the item."
I'm sorry, but both buyer and seller enter into a contract, and there are obligations on both parties. I don't believe that the fact that this is done via ebay changes that at all.
In my opinion, it's a very slippery slope if ebay allows sellers to make inaccurate statements about merchandise, and then hold the seller to a bid based on that mistaken understanding, with impunity.
Dave, hope you like your BMI. I have two, an S-10 3+4 and an S-12 4+5. They're great guitars, IMO. |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 10:45 am
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Thanks for the eBay link, Dave.
As Jim stated,
the eBy listing clearly states, "Retail Value $2400.
That is false advertising. You have a valid reason for backing out. Make sure eBay understands this point. You are in the right.
Make eBay aware of this discussion.
[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 21 November 2005 at 10:47 AM.] |
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Bill Quinn
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 10:47 am
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| I had a near disaster on ebay when I was last minute bidding on two items at the same time (not recommended, read on). I mistakenly bid one of the items(non musical)at over twice the new cost, thinking I was bidding on the other item. I realized my mistake just as I hit the "confirm bid" button. Amazingly, or maybe not, I was outbid by an overseas bidder!! |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 12:32 pm
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| It also does not have 4 pedals |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 12:32 pm
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| The seller said it has 4 pedals. It only has 3 pedals. Other things in the ad might be subjective, but that single point is a hard fact. The auction text described a different guitar, not the Sho-Bud Maverick. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 1:19 pm
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| Quote: |
| The auction text described a different guitar... |
... or it was an exercise in creative writing? |
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John Poston
From:
Albuquerque, NM, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 1:56 pm
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I hope the appeal works out for you. You have a lot of facts in your favor and whether or not the seller was malicious in their intent, the guitar was simply not what was advertised. I do have a couple friends where even solid facts didn't help their appeal, but if I were you I wouldn't worry too much.
I've often seen people with 1 or 2 negatives among a huge list of positive feedbacks and I agree a simple polite note with your side of the story in the feedback section will help a lot. I've never let 1 negative discourage me from bidding - it's the people with a pattern of problems I stay away from. |
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Herman Visser
From:
Rohnert Park, California, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 3:23 pm
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Dave let go . from now on only buy from the Forum and people who are on the Forum. You cannt go wrong here.You though you were getting Ford not a VW.
My 2 cents
You did well by going to jims Place |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 5:55 pm
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| Quote: |
| You cannt go wrong here |
You can go wrong anywhere. Misrepresentation is not restricted to a certain place. I speak from experience. |
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Bob Knight
From:
Bowling Green KY
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 6:29 pm
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| Note the NEW description as it is relisted..... Click Here [This message was edited to fix link] [This message was edited by Joey Ace on 22 November 2005 at 06:20 AM.] |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 7:52 pm
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The new listing, with corrections, is more evidence that the original listing was at fault. eBay owes you a retraction.
Sorry Howard. I really thought that was a Pre-War Goldtone. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 8:24 pm
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"Your best course of action is to put a polite response to your negitive feedback, stating your reason for not following thru."
Correct.
Caveat Emptor. "Let the buyer beware".
If the item description is wrong - i.e. says it's a Ford but it's a Chevy - that's one thing. But "professional" is a relative term (more than one Maverick has been a club "house steel"), and "retail value" has no relevancy in court (got that one from my attorney). Number of pedals listed wrong? Could a knee lever be considered a pedal? Probably.
The point? If you don't know what you're buying, DON'T BID. The minute you pull the trigger, you have a contract. I get buyers constantly who don't read the listing completely or don't know what they're buying. Not my problem, but the buyers make it my problem. There IS a difference - I'm pretty careful in my descriptions. But there have been cameras I've sold I don't know much about, and right now I have a trombone on eBay...if I misdescribed it, it's not intentional, so I expect buyers to either 1) know what it is, or 2) ask lots of questions, or 3) pass. It's the ones that bid because they think it MUST be a neato item (when it's listed with disclaimers) that end up complaining when it's not.
Rant switch "off"...
Anyway Dave - one NPB strike is no big deal. Sellers aren't even aware of it usually, only the feedback. Just leave a polite reply to the negative feedback that the item was represented as more than it really is, and leave it at that. No worries.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 21 November 2005 at 08:56 PM.] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 21 Nov 2005 11:49 pm
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| Quote: |
| The minute you pull the trigger, you have a contract. |
I don't think so, if the item is not as described. I don't care where you are - in this country, if a seller makes material misrepresentation of an item they are selling and it causes the buyer to not understand the terms of the sale, there is no contract.
If someone wants to say "Here is a pedal steel guitar. It says Sho-Bud, it has 3 pedals, I don't know anything else", that's one thing. But to call it a Sho Bud Professional 4 pedal steel guitar, that is a "rare" model (not another example on ebay, according to seller), with a "retail value" of $2400, that is flat-out inaccurate if it really is a student model 3-pedal Sho Bud Maverick, there is another example on ebay, and the "retail price" back when they were made was a few hundred bucks. The biggest problems here are that that
1. There is a model known as the "Sho Bud Professional" - the ad, IMO, says that this steel is one of them.
2. The ad says there are 4 pedals, there are only 3. I agree that the "retail value" doesn't mean much, although it is misleading.
btw, there IS another Maverick on ebay, despite the claim of the new ad:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sho-Bud-Maverick-Pedal-Steel-Guitar_W0QQitemZ7368250166QQ
Final point: Here is the seller's own policies on "contracts" and "return policy":
"Store Policies:
Your bid is a contract - Place a bid only if you're serious about buying the item. If you are the winning bidder, you will enter into a legally binding contract to purchase the item...
Refunds and Returns
... will accept return of the goods only if they are not exactly as described in this listing. Returns are accepted within 3 days from the time you receive the item."
They argue that they are operating under standard contract law, and they will accept returns if an item is not exactly as described in the listing. This is open and shut, IMO. Caveat emptor does NOT permit the seller to misrepresent the terms of a sale, even by an honest mistake. The buyer can't see the guitar - the seller is obliged to either accurately describe it or say "I don't know the details, buy at your own risk". The whole premise of ebay is that the buyer should be able to rely on the seller's description.
End of rant. |
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Colm Chomicky
From:
Kansas, (Prairie Village)
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Posted 22 Nov 2005 10:17 am
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Looks like the Maverick is relisted. Near identical ad but the $2400 has been dropped
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7368362833&ssPa geName=MERC_VIC_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BID_Stores_IT
oops... looks like a few others above already provided link to relisting. Bit it seems, most experienced sellers also don't want a bad mark against them and avoid giving negative feedback unless the buyer gives them negative feedback. Its all appearances.[This message was edited by Colm Chomicky on 22 November 2005 at 10:30 AM.] |
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