Tone, regarding push/pull

Jon Voth · From: Virginia, USA

I know modern guitars will be all pull.

When I buy my own new one it will be an all pull (I've been advised to do that).

My question is what is the special sound that a push pull has?

So can anyone describe, in laymans terms, how a PP may be better?

I've looked at this as much as I can, and am curious what the pros say-I am a musician first so the sound is more important to me than maintenance or feel of pedals.

I have a GFI D10 for about a year. Am I making too much of this? Is there something extra special about push pull sound?

Thank you!

Jon

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Lots of opinions have been expressed on this forum.

Have you tried using the two search functions b0b has provided?

Here is a lengthy discussion ---> Click Here

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Yes, you're making too much of it. Certain instruments can sound different from one another, and that goes for any instrument. But in reality, there in no "best"; that's a subjective thing, and each player will have his or her own preferences. If you're just starting out, know that it will be many years before you can get the best out of any instrument. After you have a modicum of skills built up, and have seen and heard many players playing many different guitars, you'll be able to make your own determination as to what sounds good to you.

In the meantime, ignore the gear-snobs that tell you that you must play or use a certain brand of anything to sound your best. That's just not true. The biggest factor in how good you will sound can always be found between the seat and the steel. Winking

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

If there was one particular model or brand that had absolutely, obviously superior tone to all others, I guarantee you every pro player would be using it. That's not happening. Even Buddy Emmons, whose name the Push/Pull carries, used Sierra, EMCI, Zumsteel, and other brands during his career after the introduction of the P/P. I don't think anyone complained about his tone.
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Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

there must be a few lying around virginia, maybe you could try one.

there's a few hours worth of reading about "that push pull sound" on the forum (ask me how i know).

i got one 6 months ago. i like it, and it feels and sounds different than the other guitars i've played, but then again they all sounded and felt different from each other, too.

i like it because the high end stays pretty intact when you push the treble to cut through a busy band, and it sustains really well up high.

one good thing is that once you buy one you can no longer blame your guitar for sub par tone. you'll have to start blaming your cables or something.

they aren't as tricky to mess with as some might say, but there is a learning curve and the law of unintended consequences applies to their set up.

have fun on your journey into the push pull rabbit hole. remember that all the answers can be had for about three grand, and if it's black you can always get your money back fairly quick.

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

I have been on the Push Pull wagon for a few months and have reached a few conclusions as well.

They do play differently from an all Pull Guitar; not more difficult just a different feel.

Tone: The tone for sure is unique and I do like it. It is superior to my Rittenberry's? No just different. Each guitar has it's own unique timberal qualities and the Push Pull is just different sounding than all pull guitar.

Due to the limitations of setup on the Push Pull it has made me a better player in figuring out different ways of playing splits that I have on my all Pull Guitar.

So I go from one to other and enjoy both of them a lot. Would I ever commit entirely to a Push Pull? For me probably not. YMMV.
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

From back in 2003:

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I had a D-10 PP (Black) bought new in 71. It had the stock single coil pickups. Played it until I got a new D-10 Franklin in late 81. The sound is different between the two, both are good but I prefer the Franklin with Lawrence pickup sound.

I liked the new Franklin so well that the Emmons was sold within 2 months of getting the Franklin, and I didn't miss it.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

An Emmons p/p has a certain "growl" in it's tone that you won't find in an all pull guitar.
The closest I've come is with a Zum Hybrid.
Erv

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

after playing hundreds different guitars, I came to one conclusion , I love them all ... they all sound a little different, but they all sound great to me... I guess I wasn't of much help here lol ...
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

That's about right Damir.

You also need a great amp and a good ear to dial it in.

I have an 82 emmons PP, 74 MSA, 1974 Pro 2 Shobud, and an 02 lacquer Fessenden.

I like them all for their strengths.

The question is if you can live with their weaknesses.

The biggest con of the PP is the difficulty of changing the mechanical configuration to match evolving copedant needs. That is a very big drawback.. But once copedant needs settle it is probably a great answer. Its treble can get a little out of control on the amp.

The Fessenden has the least comfortable pedal shape otherwise it has a totally pro level modern but nicely fat tone.

Shobud (woodneck) has some undercarriage parts that are fragile, and comparatively weaker sustain in upper register, but the hard hitting superfat tone rocks!

MSA woodneck is flat toned but is the most comfortable and easiest guitar to work on. It isvery very easy to play and stays in tune well.. Great gigging guitar.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

Tom, those are all great guitars, the biggest weakness I have to put up with is myself lol ... and I have to live with that one Smile

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Asa Brosius · Posted 18 Nov 2018 12:38 pm

You really have to play a few to get a sense. Unless you're into reading frequency charts, and even then, tone discussions are in the realm of poetry. I've played a few and I own two early 70's models- I like them a lot,they're very different from each other, and I tour with a modern all pull because its a better fit for the material.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

right, if I was on the road Iâ€™d use modern new steel, for no other reason but because Iâ€™m lousy steel guitar mechanic , and Iâ€™d like guitar to be as user friendly as possible, Iâ€™d probably have S10 keyless GFI or something like that... something new, high pro quality, light weight, and easy to work on...
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I got one with the idea (from reading the forum) that I would be stepping from a black & white world into a technicolor dream.
Now, that is mostly my own inexperienced fault. Its properties were, to me, subtle. It didn't fit me as comfortably as the all pull guitar that I'd had built to my physical specs and it ended up staying in its case for a few years. In those years I learned how to play a bit and how to create and control decent tone.

A friend came over to have her steel worked on and asked if she could check out the Emmons. She simply fell for it -- a thunderbolt -- it was her soul mate. It only made sense to sell it it to her. In the week that I held on to it to get it ready for her I discovered what the p/p was all about. I found its special thing. It was hard to go ahead with the sale but I did.

I still say that it is subtle but then, I'm not one of those people who can go to a rack full of Telecasters and find the one that has "IT".
I'd love to have that steel back but really, I'm happy playing all-pull guitars and I have a new one on order. To me, it's not a huge element in the creation of good sound. Maybe I'll get another chance to own a p/p and maybe I'll become more enthusiastic about it having that special something that I really want.
Or maybe not.

No idea if this ramble is helpful....just running off at the fingers.

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

If I'm asked (and I am once in a while), I just say I can play better on a guitar that plays better. I had four push/pulls before I went to an all pull. And I will be the first to admit this is entirely subjective.
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Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Being happy with a PP is a do able deal. It is like getting your wife to obey the rules and do exactly what you want her to do. After that all is good.
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Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

I had 2 push-pulls, a 66 & an 82.
I wish I still had them. Yes; the tone is very vocal; very throaty. They almost never go out of adjustment. The feel was very "springy"; kinda like every time I hit a change, I felt like something was gonna break. It never did. The best way to describe a push pull is they are just like an old Harley-Davidson shovelhead...mechanical nightmare, but nothing sounds better.
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Jon Voth · From: Virginia, USA

Hey thanks for all replies, especially those regarding "tangible specifics" of sound & action.

The first one I buy for myself probably will be a modern all pull. But I am intrigued.

I live close to Billy Coopers. I'm sure he's got lots of PP's to try.

Jon

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Doesn't Billy have the first Emmons built? I may be off the mark here but I understand he has one of the originals.
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Bill C. Buntin · Posted 20 Nov 2018 6:15 am

I'm stating Opinion based on personal experiences.

I believe you have to spend a LOT of time in the seat for the tone or feel of any particular instrument to make a HUGE impact. The push pull Emmons has some psychological effect whether we as the entire Steel Guitar community choose to admit it or not. But, Its' characteristics are unique based on the way the strings and changers interact with the body of the guitar itself. The push pulls that I owned had a total vibration that I could feel all the way through the guitar body, down to the floor. In particular on one S10 PP I owned. It was "magical" to some extent.

What Jack Stoner said is very nearly the same for me. After going back to all pull guitars, I have not really "missed" the push pulls. I owned an MCI welded frame guitar before I owned a Push Pull. After I experienced the Push Pull, then moved on to others, I found myself really missing the MCI experience. So much so that the last two guitars I've owned are EMCI. I still have one. If money was no object I would have a Push Pull and another Short Key Head Legrande, an Infinity and a Rains.

Because this is a very personal and Subjective topic, you will get huge differences of opinions.

Tone and feel are as much a result of the player, player ability, hands etc as the physical capability of the guitar.

~Bill

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

The ZB has a changer design that is similar to an Emmons p/p and mimics the tone of a p/p. Very Happy

Erv

Patrick Huey · From: Nacogdoches, Texas, USA

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