Using steel in styles other than country.

Mark Fasbender · Posted 9 Nov 2005 2:40 pm

This probably should be its own thread so here goes. What are some techniques you all use when applying steel to different musical styles. What works for you? how do you approach soloing on different styles? What about voicings? Any input would be appreciated as my knowledge on this subject is kinda limited to some simple things I've picked up. Have at it. after this thread runs its course, I'll probably print it out and use it as my own personal primer. Thanks everyone.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

#1 Rule: Don't pump that "A" pedal! It's too country.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Mullen U-12, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I think Lee's right.

Mike Perlowin mentioned on another thread that several tunes in West Side Story are built around country figures. It wouldn't be surprising if most steel music were.

But here's what I've been playing around with: starting with a M13 or M7, AB or BC pedals pressed, then releasing them as I slide up a minor third or a fourth. Basically trying various combinations to see what I get. It's fun.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

One of the issues is this: what is the target genre's tolerance for "bends" (notes that change pitch). It's common in blues, for example, and accepted "as an emotional effect" in jazz. But it's totally out of place in baroque and questionable in familiar classical pieces.

All forms of music allow instruments that play one note at a time, so if you understand the scale and the progression you can probably find a part that fits in. You have to be careful about bends, though. The full-step changes can easily be construed as "too country", especially if your instrument has a "twangy" sound.

Rock music tends to prefer 4ths and 5ths rather than 3rds. Try to develop harmonies that use wider intervals. Leaving the 3rd out of a chord makes it sound a bit ambiguous, and which 3rd to use (major or minor) becomes the soloist's choice. That's where things can get really interesting.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

The only rule is that there are no rules.

Case in point: Paul Franklin's solo in 'Walk of Life' on the Dire Straits 'On the Night' album.

This is NOT A COUNTRY TUNE. Yet Paul plays in basically the same style he uses in the studio in Nashville. There's somewhat of a Mooney feel to some of the fill and solo playing and he certainly does't avoid country feel.

Bottom line: IF IT WORKS, IT WORKS

Here are three other examples (shameless plug) from my most recent CD "I've Got Friends in COLD Places"
An Elvis Costello tune http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/Alison.mp3
A Beach Boys tune http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/InMyRoom.mp3
A Steely Dan tune http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/Rikki.mp3

There are also tunes by Norah Jones, the Beatles, bebop/jazz tunes by Sonny Rollins and Charlie Parker, along with Chet Atkins, a tune from 'The Wizard of Oz', and a couple of country and western swing tunes.

Info on the CD: http://www.larrybell.org/id42.htm

It's also for sale in the Forum Catalog.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Larry's stuff is a great example of the idea I hadn't heard before. Also, if you check out Sneaky Pete's "Meet Sneaky Pete" and "the Legend and the Legacy" there are commercial oriented instrumental tunes, keyboard synth-like tones, a couple old disco(!) tunes and very original stuff...with no country to speak of.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"The full-step changes can easily be construed as "too country", especially if your instrument has a "twangy" sound."

I've played B-bender Teles in Blues and Rock bands for 20+ years with no complaints...or mention of..."twang" or "country sound". The Tele is a classic blues guitar - Albert Collins, Mike Bloomfield, Roy Buchanan...and none of them were considered "twangy". And the bender allows you to play bends you'd play by hand anyway. So the "bend" issue doesn't really affect blues or rock, whether on Tele or steel.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Yeah, a Tele isn't as twangy as a Sho-Bud, so you can get away with more of that stuff. That was my point exactly.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I've done '50s and rockabilly, and some blues and rock as well. I've found that it's the "whiney 'ol 3rd string"

, and those I-IV and V-I A/B changes that make it sound too country.

Also, it helps to have some "attitude" and "sneer" in your playing. Country musicians lack this...their only attitude is a "grin", or sometimes no attitude at all.

(Yeah, like them guys on Lawrence Welk.) Rock audiences seem to appreciate "attitude" as much as they do talent, sometimes more.

Nathan Delacretaz · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Larry - I love your clips! Rikki and Alison, especially... Wonderful stuff, man.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Attitude chops...man I gotta work on that

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Donny makes a good point - outside of musical differences, there's often a difference in pick "attack" in rock or blues. Country is often more smoothed out, whether slow or fast. Typical rock and blues have an "edgier" sound - while I don't like the term all that much, "alt country" has a bit of that "edge" to it.

Listen to a typical Brent Mason (country) guitar solo, and a typical Albert King one - completely different emotional "feel" to them (and I'm not dissing Brent, he and his wife are sort of friends of mine. Just talking about stylistic things).

One well played and placed note can speak volumes in a blues song.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 09 November 2005 at 08:04 PM.]

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I think of different instruments, like "what would a hot harmonica player do here?" or sax, B-3, horn section, etc. Jazz guitarists have been thinking in horn lines since the beginnings of jazz guitar. I do the same thing when playing standard guitar. It helps avoid repeating common guitar cliches. Works with steel too.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Art music. This was taken at a concert I did at the Schindler House June 04. I'm playing and recording real-time loops and at this moment, I'm reading and recording one of 2 parts that is being added to the bowed and struck rod loops already recorded. This was followed by rolling the bar on the bass neck of Guitarzilla from low D (7th fret) to low A (2nd fret).

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Chas - way cool. Makes me think of a steel version of Fripp and Eno....

I'm sure somebody knows who they are.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

About the A pedal/whole step raise: In country it's mostly is to go from the non chordal tone a shole step above the root, to the 3rd of the chord.

In rock and blues, the same motion is very effective on the use of the blues scale to go from degrees 4 to 5, and 7 to 8.

I frequenrly use the A an B pedals, starting on the minor 3rd of the blues scale, or to put it another way, I use the 7th string as the root tone.

In other words, playing C chord riffs while the rest of the band is in A. (Note: This does NOT mean to go to an F chord when the band hits the D. The rule of thumb is to stay on that C chord regardless of what chord the rest of the band is playing. There are of course exceptions.)

When I play classical music, I tend to use the pedals more to get a chord position to work out of, but there are no hard and fast rules. I find that every passage and phrase is different, and in some cases the pedal sounds are appropriate and on other they are not. Often I'll articulate every note in the phrase seperately, till the last one, and gliss or slide into that.

Also, if a phrase is repeated one or more times, I try to play it differently each time.

I'm currently working on a piece that has a lot of triplet figures, in which the very quick depression and release of the A pedal is exactly what's required.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

BTW, the signature lick in West Side Story that appears in several places and closes out the entire work, is the quintessential E9 pedal lick. Hold down the B pedal, hit string 3,4,and 5, and mash the A pedal.

In this case, the bass is playing a dissonant harmony so the totaly effect is a little surreal, but the actual melody lick played on the steel is one we've all played a gazillion times.

Mark Fasbender · Posted 9 Nov 2005 10:27 pm

Thanks Mike and all.

Playing Cmajor over A gives A aolean does it not? Would Gmajor over A give A dorian?

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Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 09 November 2005 at 10:28 PM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

In C6th, you can play out of a forward bar-slant position in a lot of places. For example, play a G chord by playing a G on the 15th fret of the 6th string, a B on the 16th fret of the 5th string, and an E on the 17th fret of the 4th string. Then vary the pitch of the notes by changing the angle of the bar, and pulling it towards and away from you - it makes for a very different sound than sliding up and down. (Press pedal 6 and lower the 5th string a whole step in this position and you've got a D chord; two frets down a C chord; etc.)

Then there's the infamous Dave Easley "penciling" technique. It is what it sounds like, you hold the bar up just like a pencil and use the nose to paint out arpeggios. The higher up you are the closer together they are of course. Easley has an astonishing facility with this, he can get all these lightning-fast Coltrane tone clusters going in C6th, I 've never heard anybody else do anything remotely like it.

[This message was edited by David Mason on 10 November 2005 at 02:44 AM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

"Playing Cmajor over A gives A aolean does it not? Would Gmajor over A give A dorian?"

Think of it as playing A using the G maj scale to get A Dorian. The Dorian mode has a b3 and a b7. A major has 3#s, F#, C# and G#. G has 1#, F#. In A, C# is the 3rd and G# is the 7th, flat them and it's A Dorian..

David Doggett · Posted 10 Nov 2005 9:07 pm

For blues and rock, you need power chords (1,5,1) on the bottom. Neither 10-string E9 or C6 are set up for power chords. Many people who play blues and rock use a 12-string extended E9 or universal (my preference). For lead, you need to do a lot of fast single string stuff on the middle and high strings. A bar with a grip works better. I use a Shub Pearce #2, which has a grip and a half bullet nose. The lighter bar also has a more slide-guitar sound. The vibrato is more tense and extreme (faster and wider). You don't use the volume pedal much. Some people loose the volume pedal and use a wah instead. I have tried that, but it sounds too gospely to me. You need a driven tube amp, or an FX unit that gives some fuzz or overdrive. I use a POD XT, which has many choices for fuzz and overdrive.

You need to get much more familiar with minor keys and minor chords. The A pedal minor chord position is a very powerful pentatonic position. The root is on strings 10 and 5; 3b on strings 8 and 4; the 4th is on strings 7 and 1, and my LKV takes strings 7 and 1 to the 5b. Release the A pedal and you get 7b on stings 10 and 5. So you have almost two octaves of the pentatonic scale. This position also works great for blues-based jazz, which is most of modern jazz.

On pedal steel you have pedal glisses (what are called "bends" above) and bar glisses (slides). There is plenty of use for both in rock, blues and jazz; but they are mostly not the I-IV AB pedal mashing kind.

In addition to the I(m), IV, V chords, the IIIb fret (3 frets above the tonic) is a much used position, either to get the whole IIIb chord (usually as a power chord), or to gliss from a 3,5 sequence to a 5,7b sequence. In the A-pedal minor key position, you get the IIIb by staying on the tonic fret and simply releasing the A pedal. The IV is a whole step above that, and V a whole step further. So you get Im, IIIb, IV, V all within four frets. Also, from the A-pedal minor tonic position, you get V by dropping back one fret and hitting the AB pedals (a case where AB pedal mashing works). IV and IIIb are whole steps down from there. At the A-pedal minor position, the BC pedals give you the IVm, which is a common chord in minor blues and jazz. There is a whole world of music at that A-pedal minor position. It is especially good on a uni, because you get a full lower octave, that is not complete even on extended E9. That lower octave is great for blues and rock power chords, and for low-string mellow jazz.

For pre-modern classical music, the E9 neck is a natural. It's all there, the I, IV, V, VIm, IIm, and diminished, augmented, and suspended chords. The "chromatic" strings are very useful. But you will almost never want to use a pedal or bar gliss. You have to hit every note right on the fret. Perfect intonation is an absolute requirement, and the vibrato is very subtle.

E9 pedal steel is a real natural for Irish music. Even the pedal mashing works - probably because American country music descended from Scots-Irish folk music.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 November 2005 at 09:22 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

As lomg as distortion has been mentioned, I'd like to mention that I have my fuzz box (a 70s vintage eledctro harmonix big muff) omn a bypass loop. and an MXR 6 band EQ unit on a second loop, after the fuzz in the chain. When they are both turned on, the distrtion is EQ'd.

The result is a screaming rattle-your-bones fuzz box on steroids. Rock and roll heaven.

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

Big Muff? Yuck! I used one for guitar before I knew what overdriving an amp meant. It was an original 1970s Big Muff, and it was so poorly built that it broke down on me three times. After the third time I chucked it in the garbage. And I don't miss it. The distortion was so buzzy it made my guitar sound like a bass harmonica. I can't imagine using one for steel. If I want a buzzy sound I'll use my Fender Ultimate Chorus amp, which in itself sounds buzzy but not quite as harsh as a fuzzbox.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

The problem with Big Muffs is they are incredibly inconsistent. I've had at least half a dozen and no two sounded alike, and all were basically buzz bombs with a narrow tonal range - just a bucket o' drunken bees.

I prefer the ZVex Fuzz Factory, but it takes some work to "dial it in" and you HAVE to read the instructions or you're d-e-a-d. A buddy of mine also makes a version of the old Fender Blender that does a good job with steel and adds a high octave at low volume that tracks nicely. On a budget? Find a discontinued Ibanez Sound Tank FZ-5 for around $15-20...it's the best bang-for-buck fuzz I've ever heard.

That being said, I'd rather use my Klon Centaur for boost (not as an overdrive) and a '55 Deluxe run wide open. THAT's distortion tone at its finest IMO. My old Fender 400 or 1000 will sustain for days with that setup.

Last - the Ancient EH LPB-1's that plug into the amp can make a small tube amp scream for mercy. Does a good David Lindley tone emulation with steel. I have 6, all in different colors (a strange collection fetish) - it's basically about 4 parts and a switch.

On a REAL budget? Put any diode across your speaker terminals. That was our instant "Satisfaction" fuzz in the 60's.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

The big muff by itself can be pretty funky, but when you add the EQ to it as I described you can really dial in the tone. I get my distorted sound by the combination of the big muff and the MXR 6 band EQ.

BTW my big muff is an original one from the 70's. I think the new black ones don't sound at all like the old ones.

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