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Topic: Using negative cents to tune C6 steel with a digital tuner |
Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 5 Nov 2018 6:40 pm |
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I was just contemplating how much better a lap steel sounds when you purposely use the negative cents side of your tuner, which gives you a much richer sound. This tuning technique was not included in my first two non-pedal steel instruction books (Jerry Byrd and Dewitt Scott). If I remember correctly, it was Rick Aiello, here on the forum who taught us this important tuning process. I've seen Peterson Tuners use a slightly different tuning chart for C6, but Ricks method ( turns out Peterson has the same chart) sounds like the 1930's to 1940's Hawaiian records that I love to listen to. Here's the chart:
E -13.7 (Highest string)
C +00.0
A -15.7
G -01.9
E -13.7
C +00.0 (Lowest string)
Edit: I removed the phrase: "gives you a much better fit with the other ET instruments", because of some understandable confusion it seemed to cause one of our forum members who only tunes his steel to ET. Sorry about that, I should have worded it better.
Last edited by Jesse Pearson on 7 Nov 2018 11:51 am; edited 3 times in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2018 7:32 pm
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The problem is that your open strings will sound out of tune with the band. To make it work, take the average of all of those numbers and add it to each of them.
I just did that and got 7.5 cents. If you raise all of your numbers by 7.5 cents, you'll still have the same intervals and your open tuning won't sound flat of other instruments.
Pedal steel history: For years Jeff Newman taught that we should tune our E's on E9th and C's on C6th to the center line, which pushed almost everything else into negative territory. He always compensated by aiming high with the bar, probably unconsciously. Then someone (maybe Lloyd Green?) pointed out to him that his open tuning was so flat that it was basically unusable. He admitted his mistake and came out with a new chart<sup>*</sup> that raised everything about 10 cents, and most of the pedal steel community followed his advice.
<sup>*</sup>I've converted Jeff's original from Hz to cents
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Last edited by b0b on 5 Nov 2018 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 5 Nov 2018 8:14 pm
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Hi Bob, won't that make my Open C notes Sharp? I haven't noticed a problem with the open strings because I guess I don't use open strings generally? I recorded Sleepwalk recently and posted it on the forum on a Sleep Walk thread and the steel sounded fine to me against the other instruments, but I'm not using any open strings either. If I'm compensating somehow with my bar to put things in tune, I haven't visually noticed that relative to the fret markings. Could you share what you would tune a 6 string C6 lap steel to cent wise, to make sure I'm following you? Maybe I could make a comparison of audio tracks against the same rhythm section to see if anyone hears a strong difference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vl2a9-HnSc
All I know for sure is that the tuning chart I posted was like night and day when I started using it compared to tuning the steel with the tuner right at zero cents for all the notes, like when tuning a regular guitar...lol.
Would a short scale lap steel behave much differently then a Pedal steel or are they the same scale length? |
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Brad Davis
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2018 8:42 pm
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I think Cindy Cashdollar talks about this a little on her Western Swing DVDs.
I don't overthink it, I just flat the 3rds and 6ths just slightly, a few cents, 5 or 6 maybe. Tweak as needed to sound good to my ear. If it sounds good it is good. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2018 8:48 pm
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Before electronic tuners, most people tuned by ear. A good ear will give you something very close to the intervals in your chart. Tuning a steel guitar to "0 cents" on all of the notes gives you equal temperament, which isn't the sweet sound you hear on those old records (or new ones, for that matter).
You are on the right track. The difference I'm talking about is only noticeable on open strings. Your ear guides your bar. I doubt that you'll hear any difference if you aren't playing open strings.
E -13.7 + 7.5 = -6.2 (Highest string)
C +00.0 + 7.5 = +7.5
A -15.7 + 7.5 = -8.2
G -01.9 + 7.5 = +5.6
E -13.7 + 7.5 = -6.2
C +00.0 + 7.5 = +7.5 (Lowest string)
When I'm in a noisy environment where I have to use a cents-based tuner, I just do this:
E -5
C +5
A -5
G +5
E -5
C +5
It's not perfect, but it's easy to remember and it doesn't sound bad.
_________________
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 6:18 am
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Well, I am not on board with these sweetened tunings.
I have seen things like the "Buzz Feitan" tuning system, weird fretting, and special ways of tuning so a few simple chords in a handful of keys have 3rds that no longer match 12 tone Equal Temperament.
| Jesse Pearson wrote: |
| I was just contemplating how much better a lap steel sounds when you purposely use the negative cents side of your tuner, which gives you a much better fit with the other equally tempered instruments. |
How does NOT tuning to 12 T ET make your instrument fit better with instruments that are so tuned? Sorry, this is incorrect.
To my ear, these tuning methods limit you to certain tonalities and do not mesh with 12 tone Equal tempered tuning, which is what our modern musical world - like keyboards, guitars with frets, etc. - are designed to be tuned to.
Now I understand non-tempered tunings from my years playing Early music, and am familiar with meantone, Werkmeister, and many other non-tempered tunings; plus I play Arabic and Turkish music that uses so-called "quarter tones".
Thus I am quite used to hearing a variety of small musical intervals.
The reason I do NOT use a "sweetened" tuning on my instruments but rather use 12 Tone ET, is explained fully in the opening chapters of the "Craft of Musical Composition" by Hindemith.
A musical system designed to be in non-tempered tuning and based on 3rds closer to meantone tuning will not be usable in all 12 keys, nor will all chord types sound good.
What you gain, to my ear, in a few keys and simple chords is not worth what you loose, that is, the ability to play all chords and harmonies in all 12 keys equally well.
All tuning systems are a compromise. The reason 12 tone ET has been chosen my the Western musical art world is the ability to modulate to any key and to be able to use any chordal harmony, admittedly very slightly equally out-of-tune on all intervals except octaves and unisons.
When in a C6 tuning, for instance, you choose to make those intervals anything other than the 12th root of 2 derived 12Tone ET, those specific pitches , although lovely as 3rds and 6ths in C6, become "wolf tones" in more distant keys.
The E used a a 3rd in a untempered C chord is NOT the same pitch as needed to be the E root of an E chord. Same with the A, it would not be the pitch that would support an A chord. The C# in said A chord would be very out of tune with the C natural. What you gain in one situation is lost in another.
Also, if you are playing with most other instruments, they will be tuning to 12 tone ET, so why deliberately mistune?
I do understand all the reasons why people choose to use alternate tunings.
I just want to comment from a music theory POV, and explain why I do NOT use such tunings.
Last edited by David M Brown on 6 Nov 2018 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 6:22 am
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| b0b wrote: |
Before electronic tuners, most people tuned by ear. A good ear will give you something very close to the intervals in your chart. Tuning a steel guitar to "0 cents" on all of the notes gives you equal temperament, which isn't the sweet sound you hear on those old records (or new ones, for that matter).
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Not all old records were tuned with untempered tunings. I'd like to know which ones you refer to when you make that blanket statement.
Also , when you are well trained in 12 tone ET tuning, it also sounds "sweet" - because it is correct musically. When we were in music school, we had years of ear training, sight-singing, musical dictation, etc.
It was ALL in 12 tone ET tuning except for specific Early music works sung with no accompaniment.
Anyway, one thing - if we use various tuning methods our steel guitar sounds will all be our own unique sound. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 8:40 am
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| David M Brown wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
Before electronic tuners, most people tuned by ear. A good ear will give you something very close to the intervals in your chart. Tuning a steel guitar to "0 cents" on all of the notes gives you equal temperament, which isn't the sweet sound you hear on those old records (or new ones, for that matter).
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Not all old records were tuned with untempered tunings. I'd like to know which ones you refer to when you make that blanket statement. |
Records by Jerry Byrd, Sol Hoopii, Barney Isaacs Jr., Little Roy Wiggins, Don Helms and Herb Remington, to name a few. Alvino Rey and Joaquin Murphy may have used equal temperament, but I can't think of any steel guitarists who used it for Hawaiian music.
I've heard your arguments before, David, and I don't care to rebut them here. Jesse started this post with his tuning preference, which is very similar to what most of the top steel players of the Hawaiian era used. If that's the sound you're going for, why would you not tune that way?
_________________
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L. Bogue Sandberg
From:
Chassell, Michigan, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 9:26 am
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| Like Brad Davis, I usually tune the 3rds and 6th about 5 cents flat and roots, 5ths, and b7th straight up on my 8 string reso. This compromise seems to work against guitar, banjo and fiddle. The guitar is Equal Tempered, I suppose. Our kid fiddle player has perfect pitch. She never uses a tuner and never sounds off. And the banjo..., never mind. So there is no right answer, other than listening and staying out of each other's way. |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 11:24 am
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The reason I don't use Equal Tempered tuning on my lap steels anymore is because I can hear that it sounds lame compared to the offset tunings. It's very obvious that if all the notes are tuned to the Equal Temperament scale, then the steel sounds very flat and bland when just playing the steel by itself. The offset tunings can and should be tested by the player against a good rhythm section and recorded for playback listening. Your ear will tell you whats right for you and as Bobby graciously pointed out, there's more then one way to skin a cat. To quote the Peterson Tuner free explanation: "Tuning is just an effect" and there are many different tuning methods for different instruments that compensate for advantages and disadvantages of an instruments ability to produce single and multiple notes resulting in harmony. There isn't a right way or wrong way to voice an instrument.
I just got done reading Peterson Tuners explanation of all of this and actually found my tuning chart within it's examples. Both my root and 5th are from the equal tempered scale which I never even considered before. Tuning your steel in a way that gives you the best of everything is one of the most important lessons you can learn to help you achieve a great sound. I think all Steel Guitar instruction books should include a chapter on this. Here is the link to the Peterson Tuner page which helped to clarify my understanding of all this.
http://76.12.22.162/media/pdf/StroboFlip%20For%20Steel%20Guitar%20edited%2012-2014.pdf |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 4:12 pm
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I've programmed Rick Aiello's "Just Intonation" settings in to my Peterson tuners (HD and clip-on) and they work great for me (A6 and C6). See his page on http://horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m7_1.htm for details.
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 7:00 pm
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Hey Jim, Rick is a real brain. That's some very deep stuff he's into, we're lucky he shares it with the rest of us mortals.
Last edited by Jesse Pearson on 7 Nov 2018 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 7:43 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
I've heard your arguments before, David, and I don't care to rebut them here. Jesse started this post with his tuning preference, which is very similar to what most of the top steel players of the Hawaiian era used. If that's the sound you're going for, why would you not tune that way? |
It's not a matter of rebutting an argument - I really was asking how an untempered tuning can match tempered instruments and function in all 12 keys.
Plus, I honestly do not recall ALL of those recordings being in untempered tunings.
Thanks for responding, and I won't bother you all again about this issue.
| Jesse Pearson wrote: |
I remember seeing a number of threads on the "Just Intonation" method of tuning and thought it was at odds sometimes with equally tuned instruments. Sounds like heaven by itself. Have you experienced anything like this when you tune this way? |
The thing is, if you want the closely related keys you play in most to have purer 3rds and such, then sweetened tunings offer this, and indeed are so to speak "heaven by itself".
If any of you have digital keyboard programs that use .scl scala files you can tune to hundreds of various temperaments.
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/scl_format.html
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scales.zip
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scalesdir.txt
(this is the content list)
So you can check all of your tunings and see if you prefer one to another...and it's a long list.
Anyway, I am sorry if I offended anyone. |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 10:37 pm
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| Jesse Pearson wrote: |
Hey Jim, Rick is a real brain. That's some very deep stuff he's into, we're lucky he shares it with the rest of us mortals.
I see your into home built amps, I'm into electronics as well. Have you made a tube amp specifically for a early Hawaiian steel guitar type sound yet? I believe Rick had one in Hawaii one year that he made. I saw a video of Jeff Au hoy checking it out on the net. "Just found the thread from 2014 about Ricks homemade amp and steel guitar"...Wow...
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=272741&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I remember seeing a number of threads on the "Just Intonation" method of tuning and thought it was at odds sometimes with equally tuned instruments. Sounds like heaven by itself. Have you experienced anything like this when you tune this way? |
Jesse, Rick's amp is really nice; a real work of art! I got to hear and see it in Ft. Collins the year he made it. I havenΓ’β¬β’t built any unique designs, just 50Γ’β¬β’s and 60Γ’β¬β’s Fender recipes for my own amusement. I get the older sound from an old Oahu and old Vega IΓ’β¬β’ve restored.
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2018 11:40 pm
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| David M Brown wrote: |
| It's not a matter of rebutting an argument - I really was asking how an untempered tuning can match tempered instruments and function in all 12 keys. |
It can't, if the only pitches you play are the ones in the tuning - but you can play any pitch in any tuning on a steel guitar! There is no wolf tone to avoid when you can move notes freely with the bar, just as there is no wolf on a violin or cello. The tuning only limits what pitches you can play on the open strings.
Our brains resolve the equally tempered scale into natural harmonies because of cultural conditioning. The real natural harmonies of a properly placed untempered chord do not conflict with what our brains imagine the tempered chord to be. They are not incompatible. In fact, untempered harmonies actually reinforce the illusion that equal tempering has so cleverly created.
_________________
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 7 Nov 2018 2:39 am
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Thanks for the replies everyone...I edited my last post to Jim because I thought I was going off topic a little bit.
David, it's interesting you brought up the Kybd scaling of some synths because I repaired a nonworking Yamaha DX-11 synth this past summer and looked into the fact that you can change the cents on the notes when I was learning how to program it. I did wonder if anything about steel guitar offset tuning's might be applicable, but never arrived at anything I was ready to try yet.
As I said before, the difference between equal tempered tuning and the offset tuning's was night and day for me. Just curious if you've experimented with them yet. I have pretty standard relative pitch myself, but could tell the difference immediately when I tried the offset tuning and I've never turned back. It truly was a missing link for my sound that I wished I had known about right when I started trying to learn steel guitar, but it's missing from the instruction books. Anyway, thanks for posting your thoughts about it all. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2018 5:48 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| David M Brown wrote: |
| It's not a matter of rebutting an argument - I really was asking how an untempered tuning can match tempered instruments and function in all 12 keys. |
It can't, if the only pitches you play are the ones in the tuning - but you can play any pitch in any tuning on a steel guitar! There is no wolf tone to avoid when you can move notes freely with the bar, just as there is no wolf on a violin or cello. The tuning only limits what pitches you can play on the open strings.
Our brains resolve the equally tempered scale into natural harmonies because of cultural conditioning. The real natural harmonies of a properly placed untempered chord do not conflict with what our brains imagine the tempered chord to be. They are not incompatible. In fact, untempered harmonies actually reinforce the illusion that equal tempering has so cleverly created. |
Thanks for the response.
Just to let you know, I still do a lot of tuning by ear and I wonder how close I would get to one of those altered tunings myself.
| Jesse Pearson wrote: |
David, it's interesting you brought up the Kybd scaling of some synths because I repaired a nonworking Yamaha DX-11 synth this past summer and looked into the fact that you can change the cents on the notes when I was learning how to program it. I did wonder if anything about steel guitar offset tuning's might be applicable, but never arrived at anything I was ready to try yet.
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Those old DX's could be retuned to various pitches. I don't think they used anything as easy as the scala files. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 7 Nov 2018 8:04 am
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All this sounds way too complicated and technical to this old man !!
I have a couple tuners, that I use to get started with, but then it's by ear !  We sure didn't have tuners in the old days, and we got along OK as long as the guys in the band had it together... |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2018 8:48 am
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I'm with you, Bill. I rarely use a tuner on a non-pedal steel. In fact, if you try to play along to my solo "Stella" album, you'll find that my entire tuning gradually drifted higher over the 2 weeks it took me to record it.  I didn't realize it until I sat down to write the chord book after the album was done.
It's best to have a solid reference note to start the tuning process. I should have used one of these: www.steelguitarshopper.com/search.php?search_query=fork§ion=product 
_________________
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 7 Nov 2018 9:04 am
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David, when I stated "Kybd scales" concerning the DX-11, I was referring to the cents of the individual keys.
After some more research on the tuning chart I've been using, I've discovered that my major 3rd and 6th intervals are in fact derived from "just intonation". My 5th is actually slightly flat from ET (-2 cents),(probable someone with a great ear came up with that). Normally in JI the 5th would be slightly sharp from ET(+2 cents). And of course my root is ET.
In trying to understand why this is working for me, I am starting to see that I am probable intuitively adjusting the bar so that things fit just the way a good horn section can do with the rhythm section while playing in JI with the other horns. I tried making a chord at different places on the neck and carefully looking at the bar placement relative to the fret line, the bar looks like it is right over the top fret every time? Those JI notes would have more overtones in their makeup if I understand the theory correctly, so that's why I hear a richer sound overall. Horn sections supposedly gravitate to JI with each other and the steel can emulate that effect using our ears since we don't have fixed frets.
One thing David got my thinking about was how a synth can have it's oscillators slightly detuned from each other for a thicker sound. I suppose using offset tunings on your steel guitar is a very similar effect? |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2018 5:59 am
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| Jesse Pearson wrote: |
David, when I stated "Kybd scales" concerning the DX-11, I was referring to the cents of the individual keys.
.........
One thing David got my thinking about was how a synth can have it's oscillators slightly detuned from each other for a thicker sound. I suppose using offset tunings on your steel guitar is a very similar effect? |
Possibly so.
As for the "keyboard scales", some of the charts list the degrees of difference from 12 T ET, and some give specific frequencies of tones in various tunings and temperaments.
http://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/Physicsofmusic.html
example
http://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
Frequencies for equal-tempered scale, A4 = 440 Hz
http://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/etvsmean.html
Frequencies for Equal Temperament compared to Meantone
https://www.historicaltuning.com/index.html
https://www.historicaltuning.com/TemperamentWheel.html
This website uses a graph called Γ’β¬ΕTemperament wheel,Γ’β¬Β* to compare the frequencies of meantone temperament (M), just tuning (J), Pythagorean tuning (P), equal temperament (E), and ΓΒΌ-comma well temperament (W).
http://www.nfaonline.org/Annual-Convention/Convention-Chronicles/Handouts/2016/PeterMiddleton.pdf
Comparison of Interval Size in Equal Temperament and Just Tuning
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.02292.pdf
Another scholarly work that includes a table for various temperaments together with the pitch deviations relative to the standard ET. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 8 Nov 2018 7:14 am
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I'm a latent hillbilly. I use a lot of open strings so I tune to what sounds good to my ear. That usually means 3rds and 6ths are a little flat. But anything that can help me sound better on the Ernest Tubb instrumentals... I'm on board with. That's ET to me!
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 8 Nov 2018 1:54 pm
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| Reeces tuning method for his tuning was to tune all strings, except 3rds to 442 and to tune the 3rds to 440. He said this made him in tune with the band |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2018 5:15 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| Reeces tuning method for his tuning was to tune all strings, except 3rds to 442 and to tune the 3rds to 440. He said this made him in tune with the band |
Yeah, but he was in Bb. 
Seriously, that's sort of like my crude ΓΒ±5 cents scheme (above). It isn't perfect, but it sounds better than equal temperament.
_________________
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 17 Nov 2018 12:33 pm
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I've been pondering the scale length and playing styles used for different types of music i.e. Hawaiian, Delta Blues etc, and how scale length and fretting the instrument affects everything. I use Equal Temperament tuning straight from my tuner for regular guitars that are in an open tuning and that I fret notes on as well as use a slide. This seems to work best for me when I'm playing anything from Robert Johnson to Led Zeppelin stuff, Rolling Stones etc.
If I'm playing just lap style using a tone bar, especially on a short scale neck (22.5") I use offset tuning's so I can take advantage of the overtones they can add to the overall sound.
I was wondering if Dobro Bluegrass players are using equal tempered tuning since they don't fret notes but have a regular guitar neck length or is it just as common to use some kind of offset tuning for Bluegrass like short scale lap steels use? |
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