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Topic: Wound 6th better when having cabinet drop issues? |
Michell Geerdink
From:
Netherlands
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Posted 7 Oct 2018 9:21 pm |
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Hi,
I have some tuning problems. When i engage my a pedal string 6 goes flat. Flat enough to sound out of tune when using this combination, a pedal + 6th string on whatever position on the neck. Searching the forum for this problem i found out about 'cabinet drop'
There's a lot of information to be found but the overall opinion seems to be to accept it. Or to correct with the bar, i see that but can't do this when there's also other strings involved, right?
My guitar is an MSA Classic d10 and i use S.I.T. strings. The 6th string is unwound.
Might it be better to use a wound sixth string?
I'm also having trouble to set up the b pedal in a way that both g#'s start at the same time. Would a wound 6th not make this even harder?
Thanks,
Michell |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 7 Oct 2018 9:56 pm
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A wound sixth would lessen cabinet drop, and would have a longer pedal travel that would match the travel needed for the third string. So it would probably be easier to get the 3rd and 6th strings to start to travel closer in time to each other.
The downsides to a wound sixth would be you may have difficulty getting the sixth string to lower a whole tone if you have that change, and you may prefer the tone of a plain sixth. Some people do, and some don't.
Try it and see what works best for you.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 6:45 am
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| Michell, some players press down too hard on the "A" pedal after it reaches the stop, and that makes the drop problem even worse. Practice so that you press the pedals no harder than necessary. Also, make sure the screws at the changer end of the guitar aren't loose. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 9:17 am
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My Franklin has "cabinet drop". I had a 71 D-10 Emmmons PP and it had "cabinet drop". But it never bothered me when playing or recording.
I use George L's strings that have a .020 plain string for the 6th string. I would try a different brand of strings or a different brand of .020 or whatever the SIT set has to see if there is any difference. |
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Kevin Quick
From:
Sacramento
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Posted 8 Oct 2018 3:34 pm
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| All steels have some cabinet drop. I ran another rod through the changer to the A pedal on the 6th string so I could raise it slightly. |
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Michell Geerdink
From:
Netherlands
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 9:54 am
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Thanks for the suggestions and idea's. All very helpfullðŸ‘
I going to try the wound sixth.
I'm not looking for a 100% in tune result, not needed for me but it should be a little better than this.
Also, the extra rod seems like something worth trying. I had never thought of that..
Thanks,
Michell |
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Paul Brainard
From:
Portland OR
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 10:12 am
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I have fought with this a lot on my Fessenden S-10 (Somehow my D-10 doesn't seem to have the same problem. . .)With a plain 6th string, the A pedal detunes that G# quite a bit. Whether it is "cabinet drop", or the changer axle flexing, or the cross shafts etc. . . I went to a wound string for a while, definitely had less detuning & I was able to get the G#-F# lower to work but had a long throw on that knee lever. However over time I became dissatisfied with the sound of that wound string, especially listening back to some recordings - buzzy, howling overtones, etc. . . so now I am back to a plain string and trying to tackle the problem again. I think I am going to put a compensating raise on A pedal shaft that raises the 6th string slightly to keep it at pitch - not sure how that will work out with the F# lower and G split. . .
The reason a wound string has less detuning is because the core string (which is what is actually under tension - the windings just add mass) is actually thinner than a plain string you would normally use there. Thinner string = less tension = less detuning. This is why a lot of people use a .020p instead of a .022p, if you are not doing that it may help quite a bit. You could even try a .019 or .018!
Also, if you are not tempering your thirds, that will help - the flatter C# raises will add less tension, and the G# will be under slightly less tension to start with.
Other than those things, make sure there is not a mechanical issue like rods crossing or rubbing against other bellcranks, lube your changer, etc. And make sure you have your G# lower-return spring tight enough. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 10:19 am
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Here is something Carl Dixon posted long ago:
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I have never played a PSG where the 6th string did not drop (much too much for me) when the A pedal was pressed. Except of course the Legrande III's and new Excel Superb's, both with cabinet drop compensators.
So if you are bothered by it, I suggest you add a pull rod to the 5th string bellcrank. And pull the 6th string just a hair back up to pitch when the A pedal is engaged. I know of a number of players who have done this.
Since the travel is so small, use the hole closest to the body on the bellcrank and the hole furthest from the body on the changer.
carl
Note: The fact that the high G# drops nowhere near (if at all) as much as the 6th string, tells me the problem is in the changer/axle more than "cabinet drop". Unless I am missing something. |
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Leo Grassl
From:
Madison TN
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Posted 14 Oct 2018 8:18 am
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On most guitars there is some cabinet drop and the sixth string is the most notorious for it. Some have more than others but it is possible to tune just about any guitar to play in tune reguardless of this.
I had a Rittenberry that had extreme cabinet drop (-10 cents on the 6th string and about -9 on the 4th and 8th strings) after spending some time figuring out the best way to tune that particular guitar I was able to play it and enjoy it very much.
To answer your question about using the bar to compensate when playing three strings at a time the answer is absolutely yes. However subtle it may be bar intonation is a living breathing thing and is necessary to play in tune. Cabinet drop or not you will need to use some compensation on any guitar no matter how you tune it. I find that to help with excessive 6th string drop that tuning the 6th string open a hair sharper than you normally would can be the trick to making it sound more in tune when using the A pedal + E raise position.
There are things called "compensators" that can be used to tune out cabinet drop when specific pedals or levers are engauged. Personally I prefer the feel of a guitar that has no compensators. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Oct 2018 5:44 pm
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Leo is correctimundo!
Read this long ago in a Peterson tuner manual:
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As it happens, there is no one temperament that allows for truly in-tune musical intervals over multiple key signatures.
(Peterson Electro-musical instruments)
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C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 10:34 pm
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I’m also on a bit of a G# mission though I’m taking the compensator route. There are actually several issues. G# is right across the ‘Goldilocks’ zone - its either the thickest plain string or the thinnest wound and positioned right at the frequency that sticks out no matter what. Also its alternating between being a fifth and a third , depending on pedals pressed and wants to be getting sharper on the A F combination instead of flatter due to cabinet drop. G strings on guitars have A similar where the G string sounds fine playing G or C chords but really sharp on an E shape though this is partly an Equal temperament thing.
I have rods to pull the G# up when I press the A pedal which sorts the issue but creates one other. When I press B pedal as well as A then lift it off, the G#’s don’t drop back all the way. I’m told by MSA that this is normal as the changer isn’t going back to the stop but some folks seem to make it work without an issue. Still better than the flat G# though and I’m working on some new parts that will hopefully sort the issue.
Cheers |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 18 Oct 2018 3:50 am
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Having been back & forth between wound & plain several times, I have encountered pretty much all the issues mentioned here.
My last return to plain with a compensating pull from the A pedal reminded me why I had abandoned that plan once before.... d'oh!! --
| C. D. Maclean wrote: |
| ......which sorts the issue but creates one other. When I press B pedal as well as A then lift it off, the G#’s don’t drop back all the way. |
This was far worse and far more unacceptable than any detuning issues.
I am back with a wound string. Make no mistake--the difference it makes is large, not subtle. It is very much a worthwhile measure to reduce detuning. But yes, it has timbral trade offs and it requires fairly extreme rodding & movement for a full step drop on some steels, one of the reasons I keep trying to revisit a plain string in there.
Thank you, C.D., for your Goldilocks comment which exactly sums up my observations of the physical problems inherent in wires of that approximate gauge at that approximate scale at that approximate pitch. You end up dealing with the worst properties of either a plain or a wound string and unless the newest technologies such as the latest D'Addarios have achieved something all the other strings have not, it is just the nature of the beast. That does make me wonder about a D'Addario NYXL .022 or .024 wound.... |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2018 6:35 am
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| Where cabinet drop is an issue I have found that using a .020" wound seems to lessen it to the greatest degree. SIT gave me the core sizes and the core of a .020" is .011" (as I recall) and it generally lessens the drop substantially. Then you have to deal with the increased travel. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 28 Nov 2018 9:56 am
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| Just a follow up---I got a D'Addario NYXL .022 & .024 from b0b in order to experiment. I've got the 24 on now. It did not require any notable retuning from the juststrings.com generic single .024's I've been using I've been using for years. I use the largest string I can get away with to try to get max pitch change on the G#>F# lower lever---in other words to try to find a way to shorten the VERY long throw. I was wondering if something about the design of the NYXL might ease matters but ... nope. No retuning. It is pretty much identical (in this respect). |
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C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 28 Nov 2018 10:56 am
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| And here’s another follow up. Ive got a solution to the G# compensator issue. I think it probably deserves a new topic so watch this space! |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 28 Nov 2018 11:08 am
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The compensator rod connected to the A pedal to true the open 6th string is no different than any other multiple pull on your guitar. It connects and operates the same as all the rest of them.
Since you're only pulling a few cents, crank location is at the hole next to the body and in the changer hole with the least amount of travel.
I have had this on all my guitars since the 90's. If it's installed and adjusted properly, there's no added "feel" to it and it eliminates the 6th string detuning problem completely.
There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning this but it's a simple operation. It only operates when you are using the A pedal. It does nothing when no pedals are used. When you operate the B pedal, the change is more than the compensated note, so it's completely benign except when used with the pedal it's connected to alone.
Most players have it operating with the A pedal.
The compensated G# will make your AF combination sweeter too. |
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