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Topic: Anybody try "detuned" cabinets? |
Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 5:00 pm |
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Being a bass player and engineer, I understand closed-back and bass-reflex cabinets. You need that for bass, and I have made several attempts to get them to work with steel. I like the fact that with no sound coming from the back of the cabinet, they sound more consistent room-to-room, even if you're up against a wall. This week however I dragged out my NV400, and damn, that's how my steel should sound. I also have a 1501 in an open back cap that sounds just as great with my Carvin BX500. Man, speakers are the key. My portable rig (I play on a TINY stage in a BBQ joint in Chicago), is a TT12 in a little closed-back "kicker" wedge that sounds OK, but not like my open 1501. I am again up against a wall.
I have been wrestling with open vs. closed back for a long time, but I made a discovery. The explanations are a bit unscientific, but I think it has real promise. Kevin O'Connor in his book describes what he calls "detuned" cabinets (lots of threads on Google). They are bigger than I'd like, but essentially it looks to me that it acts like an open back cabinet with a built-in back wall that directs the back wave out the front of the speaker. Anybody try this kind of thing?
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 8:00 pm
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Yes, yes, yes Jerry - you're on the ball. I was going to mention that, but I had talked long enough (till now). The sound enhancer got mixed reviews, but generally positive ones. The thing about that is that it really acted as a horn in the midrange and tuned bass-reflex port at lower frequencies. The "detuned" cabs (I hate that term) are really "untuned" cabs, where the path from the back to the front is more direct with a delay from reflection. If you have a 2x12 cabinet, and take out one of the speakers, some call that a detuned cab. The open spot where the other 12" used to be becomes a port, but it's so wide and thin, the resonance it makes with the volume of the cab is at a really high frequency and it is low Q, so it is pretty much untuned. People remove one 12" from a 2x12 or two 12" from a 4x12 and call it detuned. Sort of. The O'Connor guy says that there should be 14"-18" between the front baffle and the back wall, and that the "port" should be about equal to the size of the speaker. That's why I said it's like an open back with a wall built-in, and the sound from the wall (which is the back of the cab) comes out the big hole ("port").
The appeal for me (if it sounds good), is that you don't care what's behind your cab anymore.What comes out the front is the same even if your backed against the picture window in a BBQ joint.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 9:03 pm
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I see. Interesting. I'll check out the guy's stuff online soon as I get a chance.
Thanks for the edu about detuned cabs. I had heard the term but didn't really know what it meant. Your explanation clears it up.
Good luck with your process. |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 5:53 pm
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So I made 2 detuned cabinets out of cardboard and hot glue. I wouldn't trust the low end because of the cardboard, but the midrange sounded terrible. I'm sticking with a closed box and an EQ for now unless somebody tells me they work great, then I'll make one out of wood.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Darren Porter
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 9:57 pm
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Yes I have experimented with detuned cabinets for guitar (the kind you wear around your neck) quite a bit. I am actually a big fan. I've found that a 12" (nominal) deep detuned cabinet with a single 10" speaker sounds pretty darn good. Very "open" sounding with a nice reverb-like quality, plenty loud and very punchy and a whole lot easier on the back than a 2x10 cabinet. Kevin O'Connor's speaker building book goes into a lot of detail on the theory and practical designs for lots of configurations and at the very least is a cheap interesting read on the subject.
In a similar vein, I just tolexed a "3D cabinet" built by TRM Guitar Cabinets and it sounds very similar to a detuned cabinet in my experience. In case you don't know what a 3D cabinet is, it is a full 12" deep, closed back and has two angled vertical baffles that direct reflected sound out two 3" wide oval ports on each side of the cabinet. You get the "open 3D" qualities of the detuned cabinet but have the added advantage that some of the sound is directed sideways so your bandmates can hear you better at lower volumes. It also helps mitigate some of the directional or "beaming" qualities of your typical 12" speaker from the audience's perspective. |
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Bill A. Moore
From:
Silver City, New Mexico, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2018 2:58 pm
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| I hadn't thought of the sideways idea. Years ago I tried a forward facing speaker, with a "W" baffle behind the driver, reflecting the sound to the slots on either side of the front baffle. It sounded terrible! Others more knowledgeable said the reason was the sound from the rear was canceling the sound from the front! |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2018 4:23 pm
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Awesome feedback Darren. Maybe I shouldn't give up too soon. Like I said, because of the places I play, I hate to have to rely on the back wall of the room to be part of my speaker cabinet. Did it sound good with steel too?
P.S. I've found that 15"s beam more than 12's
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Darren Porter
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2018 4:44 pm
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Can't speak to how it sounds with steel as I'm still a total newbie with that - been playing steel for all of a week now  but I do have decades of experience with electric guitar. However, I would imagine it would translate well.
Like anything else, it's all really personal preference though. There are also those out there that hate detuned cabinets. If your style favors a really dry and "tight bottomed" closed-back sound they may not be your cup of tea. But that's not what I imagine when I think of steel guitar so I would think you'd like a well-executed cabinet.
It's worth a gamble IMO. At the very least if you don't like it, you built a nice 2x12 or 2x10 cabinet you could flip on CL or keep as a 2x for yourself. |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 27 Oct 2018 12:27 am Re: Anybody try
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| Glenn Demichele wrote: |
speakers are the key.
I have been wrestling with open vs. closed back |
Speakers and the baffling system they are in and if the Thiele/Small parameters (TSP) are optimum for the cabinet/baffle are key.
Your open back Peavey is spreading the sound all around and the wall is capturing the back wave of the speaker and mixing it with the front wave, sort of acting slightly like a closed back cab.
What happens with an open back, the front and rear wave cancels out bass frequencies which is great for guitar, not so for bass.
There are combination open/closed back cabinets.
Carvin makes some. You can uncover one port but it is usually a 2 speaker cabinet.
Thing that would help would be to define what frequencies your instrument will be occupying (sitting in a mix with other instruments) and go with focusing on producing just those frequencies rather than trying to do full spectrum, not unless you're playing a solo gig, no band.
Imagine your sound person or engineer lopping off the low bass on your steel because you're competing/muddying up the bass guitar and kik drum with the extra low frequencies.
What you like to hear yourself as doesn't always translate through the PA or on a recording.
Steve Lukather used to use a powered sub to get down to 45hz.
Your PSG would rule with this 600w cab.
iSP Vector SL 1x15
The NV400 was designed for steel in a one tote package.
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ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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