| Author |
Topic: Tubes tube tubes!! |
Jordan Beyer
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 14 Aug 2018 12:38 pm |
|
| So, I'm faced with the fact that I am going to eventually need to get tubes for my steel guitar black box. The tube is a 12ax7. No matter how much I read, it just seems like I am very uncertain on what tubes. I've been looking on eBay for the Shuguang 12AX7B and vintage tubes. But there seems like there are so many different selects of them. I'm not sure if I should get this one, or this one, or this one, or should I acually try this? I can post a link of some of them I'm looking at. But at this point I am confused. Thanks JB |
|
|
 |
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
|
Posted 14 Aug 2018 12:45 pm
|
|
http://www.sarnomusicsolutions.com/
Best to go to the source. Brad is a super nice guy and no one would know better than the guy who build your unit.
In fact, he may see your query here and offer his recommendation. If not, you can probably just message him. |
|
|
|
Steven Paris
From:
Los Angeles
|
|
|
|
Dan Kelly
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 14 Aug 2018 11:13 pm
|
|
Hey Jordan!
I understand your dilemma. There is quite wide variety of tubes in the 12A?7 tube family. As you know, there is wide variety of pricing for these tubes, as well.
From experience, I have found that it is difficult to predict how a NOS Sylvania will sound versus, say a newer Sovetek. Both 12AX7's will work in your Black Box. You may prefer the warmth and harmonic overtones of one versus another, but you will not know it until you try it in your particular set up.
The pursuit of your "perfect" tube can lead you into a dark and virtually endless rabbit warren, from which, you may never emerge! 
Be assured though, that a fair to good tube choice will result in probably 85% of what a "perfect" choice will get you in terms of sound quality and function.
My recommendation would be to buy a $15 to $20 new production tube from someone like The Tube Store, VIVA, there are a few good online resources, and just play the PSG!
_________________
blah, blah, blah.
Hey You Kids! Get Off My Lawn!
blah, blah, blah. |
|
|
|
ajm
From:
Los Angeles
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 6:30 am
|
|
Jordan wrote: "So, I'm faced with the fact that I am going to eventually need to get tubes for my steel guitar black box."
The key word here is "eventually". Preamp tubes should last up to many years if they are not abused.
Is the tube in the BB run off a low voltage? If so, any differences between tubes may disappear very quickly.
If you really want to experiment, buy 3-4 different tubes of different types from the Tube Store or somewhere. They are cheap.
Then as Dan Kelly said, spend your time practicing and playing. |
|
|
|
Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 12:34 pm
|
|
My experience with the Chinese tubes is that they clip a lot sooner than other brands. I recommend Electro Harmonix or JJ. I've never had problems with either of them in multiple applications.
_________________
Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
|
|
|
Brian Hollands
From:
Geneva, FL USA
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 12:46 pm Re: Tubes tube tubes!!
|
|
| Jordan Beyer wrote: |
| So, I'm faced with the fact that I am going to eventually need to get tubes for my steel guitar black box. |
Why? Does Sarno recommend changing them periodically? I have 50+ year old 12a_7's in several amps and they work just fine. Unless one goes micro-phonic or causes a problem I don't replace pre-amp tubes as a matter of maintenance.
_________________
'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's |
|
|
|
Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 5:46 pm
|
|
Experimenting with tubes...
First thing you want to know is that new (made today) discounted tubes could be factory seconds snapped up by a reseller.
The better chance of a working tube is the seller who actually tests them, knows what he/she is doing, has the equipment and states test scores alongside the sale.
For new tubes JJ's in the 12AX7 are coming out as reliable.
Shuguang are some amp techs' faves.
China is trying to make better tubes. But the process is not as cut and dry as some of the trade secrets when tubes were made by America, Germany the UK, France, were not revealed.
Hard vacuuming processes which was what made tubes last long and sound good has been hidden from those who make them today and the equipment for this process is not easy to come by to copy.
Sovtek makes rebrands for many names as did many tube makers back in the 20th. But Sovtek likes to keep their flagship brand name flying high.
Rebranding back in the mid 20th was the name of the electronic device, like Fisher or Hammond for their products, made by Tungsol, RCA, Telefunken, to name a few. But today, rebranding is Sovtek buying up other brand names of tube makers in Russia and making tubes under the same roof. So take note. Even the tubes made in Russia today suffer from not being privy to how tubes were made back when every drug store had a tube tester.
| Quote: |
| But at this point I am confused |
"Tube rolling" is what tube addicts call buying and trying myriads of tubes in their gear.
If you've got the time and the money, you'll be in good company.
I like Telefunken vintage tubes for a 12AX7.
You can buy an original not-made-anymore (either NOS or "pulls") from a good seller for $37 on up to $169 for a single tube.
Here's a rebrand Telefunken 12AX7 circa the 1960's.
http://tctubes.com/Telefunken-12AX7-ECC83-smooth-plates-OEM.aspx
The Grail 12AX7
And then there are mil-spec "W" "WA" varieties and a few other designations.
And "low-noise" variants for the 12AX7 like the B759, 12DF7, 12AD7, 12DT7, 6681, 5751.
https://www.thetubestore.com/gain-factor
GE 5 Stars 5751 for 12AX7 subs, are nice rugged tubes.
I have some 5 Star 5814 variants of a 12AU7 for my Leslies.
Only you can be the final ears on the choice of tube.
But understanding what these versions and variants of 12AX7's will do to the BB circuit, your gear, your playing is something you will have to try out for yourself in situ.
You will need to buy a few tubes.
Maybe Brad has ideas of what different tubes will do since he designed the circuit, save you some steps by telling him what type of sound and response you're wanting to hear.
I also have tubes that are 50 years old running fine.
Depending on the circuit, they don't work as hard. They were definitely made better back in the 20th.
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
keep them tubees rollin'...high-fi !!!
Cut 'em out, roll 'em in
Roll 'em in, cut 'em out
Cut 'em out, roll 'em in:
roll 'em in...
high-fi! 
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7
Last edited by Godfrey Arthur on 15 Aug 2018 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Jordan Beyer
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 6:51 pm
|
|
Wow. This has got me going in a good direction. Thanks for all of your input. I feel like I understand now. I'll prob end of buying a few here and there and seeing what I like.
Are the ECC83 the same as the 12Ax7s? |
|
|
|
Jordan Beyer
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 6:55 pm Re: Tubes tube tubes!!
|
|
| Brian Hollands wrote: |
| Jordan Beyer wrote: |
| So, I'm faced with the fact that I am going to eventually need to get tubes for my steel guitar black box. |
Why? Does Sarno recommend changing them periodically? I have 50+ year old 12a_7's in several amps and they work just fine. Unless one goes micro-phonic or causes a problem I don't replace pre-amp tubes as a matter of maintenance. |
Well my understanding was new made tubes have a very vast timelife. Some last only a few years, others last much longer. And it's a slow degeneration of quality. Not like it just went bad(from my understanding) my units 5 years old?? Something like that. So I figured it's getting time |
|
|
|
Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 7:29 pm Re: Tubes tube tubes!!
|
|
| Jordan Beyer wrote: |
| new made tubes have a very vast timelife. Some last only a few years, others last much longer. And it's a slow degeneration of quality. Not like it just went bad(from my understanding) my units 5 years old?? Something like that. So I figured it's getting time |
I figured that's what you're thinking, the newer tubes will conk out all of a sudden. And not being hard vacuumed is suspect. But sadly they do. I have had that happen with new tubes and many others complain about certain brands, some with names that have historical prominence, remade in Russia and failing right after purchase. There was a big stink about the new Tungsol 6550 power amp tubes going bad when Tungsol was one of the best made tubes on the planet responsible for creating the 6550. Vintage Tungsol 6550's today go for several hundred$ a tube.
Subs for this have been Gold Lion or the more sturdy but "harsh" Sovtek 6550 if vintage Tungsols are out of budget.
If longevity is your goal, you may want to avail of the vintage NOS tubes still around. The mil-spec tubes with thicker mica discs, the wafers that keep the tube parts from touching the glass are designed to last longer in harsh conditions. You may pay more for the peace of mind vs $18 for a new tube that may fail all of a sudden and at the wrong moment, during a gig or the like. Now you know why pro acts who use tube amps have a wall of amps going at the same time.
That said, buying from a tube seller who tests their stock is a safer bet no matter vintage NOS or brand new out of Russia, China, Slovakia (JJ's) the only countries making tubes these days in enough quantities.
The future of tubes lies in China's hands as they have the funds and the verve to go after making better tubes. Quality audiophile-grade tubes will be made by aficionados over there.
And yes the ECC83 is alternate coding for the 12AX7.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
|
|
|
Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
|
Posted 15 Aug 2018 8:49 pm
|
|
Vintage RCA is my favorite for pedal steel use in the Black Box and in tube preamps.
But, Telefunken, GE, Sylvania, and most vintage tubes are also gonna be great.
And they don't have to be NOS, they can be "used-tests-good" as well.
For modern tubes it's important to avoid tubes with a "spiral filament". They can be problematic in the Black Box. Vintage tubes didn't have spiral filaments.
The modern Chinese 12AX7B (Shuguang) is really quite a good tube for clean steel, bass, and audiophile uses as well as in guitar amps. That's what comes in a new Black Box. They like a few dozen hours of break in to really settle in and arrive at their sound.
Brad |
|
|
|
Jordan Beyer
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 16 Aug 2018 12:19 pm
|
|
| I'm just curious, but why do people who advertise these tubes with spiral filaments as being super clean with lots of headroom. That sounds like something I would want, but is it not? |
|
|
|
Michael Butler
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 16 Aug 2018 2:24 pm
|
|
| Jordan Beyer wrote: |
| I'm just curious, but why do people who advertise these tubes with spiral filaments as being super clean with lots of headroom. That sounds like something I would want, but is it not? |
sales pitch-marketing.
i recently built a 58 deluxe clone and was amazed in the difference in the tube rolling. i eventually settled on EH 12ay7 in v1, jj 12ax7 in v2, two general electric used 6v6s and a sovtek 5y3 rectifier. it took me a couple of days as i wanted to hear each swap for a while and get my ears used to it. too many swaps too soon seemed to give me tin ear.
godfrey arthur really gave you valuable info.
good luck.
play music!
_________________
please see my Snakeskin's Virtual Music Museum below.
http://muscmp.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 16 Aug 2018 6:40 pm
|
|
My questions is - why?
Preamp tubes normally last for decades unless they get physically damaged. does it sound bad? If not don't worry about it. I IS a good idea to keep a spare of each tube on hand, but replacing them just because you think you need to is unnecessary. There is not regular replacement schedule for tubes.
many Fender amps that I work on have original tubes in them from the 50's and 60's.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 17 Aug 2018 2:29 am
|
|
| In 72, I came to work one morning and Ralph Mooney's Twin Reverb had been dropped off for repair. This was when he first went to work with Waylon. There were no instructions, just the amp. I checked it out and other than adjusting the BIAS I didn't find any problem. Final checkout we hooked it to a new PP Emmons and both Bob Browning and I played through it and both thought it sounded great. Someone from the band came by and picked it up. Later I found out Ralph wanted it retubed since he was starting the new gig with Waylon. |
|
|
|
Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2018 9:32 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| Hard vacuuming processes which was what made tubes last long and sound good has been hidden from those who make them today and the equipment for this process is not easy to come by to copy. |
I'm curious about this. When was this knowledge lost and how did this come to be so? I've heard legends about certain engineers that had certain secret recipes for the paste applied to cathodes but never anything about loss of hard vacuum technology except for here on the steel guitar forum.
Pages 485 to 536 in this 1962 RCA Electron Tube Design manual describe the process of tube exhaust and finishing in great detail and the two articles "High Vacuum Technology and Equipment", and "Exhaust of Receiving-Type Tubes" seem to provide a fairly comprehensive overview of what is required to make a good vacuum including specs and equipment necessary.
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Atwood/RCA%201940%20Vacuum%20Tube%20Design.pdf
Where is the weak link with modern tube manufacturers? |
|
|
|
Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
|
Posted 20 Aug 2018 10:10 am
|
|
| Matthew Dawson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Hard vacuuming processes which was what made tubes last long and sound good has been hidden from those who make them today and the equipment for this process is not easy to come by to copy. |
I'm curious about this. When was this knowledge lost and how did this come to be so? I've heard legends about certain engineers that had certain secret recipes for the paste applied to cathodes but never anything about loss of hard vacuum technology except for here on the steel guitar forum.
Pages 485 to 536 in this 1962 RCA Electron Tube Design manual describe the process of tube exhaust and finishing in great detail and the two articles "High Vacuum Technology and Equipment", and "Exhaust of Receiving-Type Tubes" seem to provide a fairly comprehensive overview of what is required to make a good vacuum including specs and equipment necessary.
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Atwood/RCA%201940%20Vacuum%20Tube%20Design.pdf
Where is the weak link with modern tube manufacturers? |
Matthew we've had a similar discussion before as I recall.
As a fellow tube enthusiast, having grown up with tube audio, my Dad building a Heathkit amp before my eyes as a surgeon's hobby, and simply because I deal with instruments that are dependent on tubes, I feel the need to educate myself as much as I can. Back then it was so easy to get tubes. These days I find as we all are, that tubes are not represented as well as they were back in the 20th.
I saw something years ago researching this and found the link that mentioned hard vacuuming and that the technology conveniently "disappeared." When I went to look again for the link a year or so ago I couldn't find it, hence your similar dead end on this. I had saved the link on another computer that fell victim to that ransom virus rendering files into unopenable unless ransom paid. Needless to say I did not pay the ransom and lost lots of files.
I know I read the phrase "hard vacuuming" alongside the mention of the technology disappearing or destroyed when factories shut down as such a word "hard vacuuming" would not have been part of my vocabulary and came from that missing site/blog on tubes.
The weak link on today's tubes is that special tool/equipment that was destroyed. The article also mentioned that the hard vacuuming was responsible for the longevity as well as the tube sounding good. Again that would not be something I could've made up as when I read that site, it was news to me, the technology that is, and an epiphany as well for not until then did I understand the missing link on tube making.
Hence I am going from memory of what I read on this as it stuck. Of course I would like to refer to the original writing on the matter but for some reason the site/blog is gone. All the searching, keyword use lead to naught. There was even a photo of the special vacuuming machine and I can't find it anymore. The photo was old, a black and white, real early to mid-20th.
Now your mention of the paste on the cathodes could be another secret recipe and something I'm hearing for the first time.
The Pages 485 to 536 info does point in the right direction doesn't it "high vacuuming" vs just "vacuuming?"
Suffice it to say, the gist of the story on the hard vacuuming ended with a trade secret that was not allowed to be revealed and I was taken aback reading it but then again not surprised. It was their technology and their right to do with it as they wished. Now why would they do that? Your guess is as good as mine. Other companies do it.
It stands to reason that for some reason, today's tubes don't last or sound as good as the old ones and there has to be a reason why. The tube industry today is not really a controlled industry from a scientific standpoint. Not as it was in the days of RCA when tubes ruled the world. Today the tube industry is about making money on an old technology with machinery that was left over from the times the companies stopped making tubes. There has been no forward thinking break-throughs if you take note as there are in other industries simply because the tube market is mostly gone. Reason why serious tube-aholics are all about NOS vintage tubes made decades ago. And the prices reflect the seriousness.
The tube horders are getting on in age and time will tell if these stashes of vintage tubes won't fall into oblivion or go to a landfill. I hope there will be younger tube addicts to take up the challenge of buying the tube stocks of serious and knowledgeable tube enthusiasts and moving forward to keeping this technology alive.
And since the older gear using the older tubes all have their own specific tube types, have to keep track of those tubes because there were many different types that today there are no known use for and you'll get tube lots of tube types that no one can sell because the odd type tube can't find a home.
It would take an electronics expert to study each tube and find a use for them. Until that happens, lots of tubes are being sold for whatever someone wants to pay or they get thrown away.
This repairman's tube caddy case is being sold for $400. The seller knows nothing about the tubes, but it's a way of moving tubes that no one knows what they do, whether they work or not and the case may appeal to someone who collects tubes or wants to make a planter out of the case. YMMV
Although I do spy some RCA 12AU7 tubes to the left upper level. Would go great in a Leslie as a preamp tube or Hammond organ as a percussion tube.
I found something among my saved notes. Apologies if I might've posted the same elsewhere on the forum:
Tube makers created "soft vacuum" vs "hard vacuum" procedures, meaning it was thought long ago in the development period, that leaving a residual amount of air within the tube made some difference,
eventually it went the "hard" way (I surmise taking out all the air as much as possible) especially when the tube industry in America went full production.
Annealing and decarburization of metals are processes that involve a number of atmospheres, some are discreet using specific atmospheres like nitrogen, even on out to water vapor content.
Hard vacuum process is complicated, makes the tube work better, last longer. Modern 21st century tubes are not made with as much attention to hard vacuuming.
These days they get the vacuum to a point where the tube just lights and don't go any further.
And while we're on the subject, I somewhat remember from an article that I can't find anymore, mentioned the steps on the hard vacuum process, that not only was it complicated, it was expensive to do. Another reason why it is not done today.
I wish I could find the article on the destroying the vacuum machine that did the hard vacuuming. Maybe someday it will surface.
As other tube based techs are finding out, them buying in bulk of modern tubes, there are a lot of duds in the lot and the search is on for the present day tube maker who makes a reliable tube.
Unless your supplier checks his supplier and on out to the source from the factory, one will be facing iffy tube reliability.
I feel it still holds that in order to avoid duds, you need to check through the tubes before you buy them or take the chance of finding a bad new tube. If you can't do it, better leave it to someone else who can, save you the trouble of installing a dud in some customer's rig.
Tube use comes at a price.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
|
|
|
