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Topic: My playing on PSG stinks and s---s |
Jerry Recktenwald
From:
Louisville KY
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Posted 13 Aug 2018 4:13 pm |
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I have owned a PSG for a year and one half my playing stinks! It sounds like just a bunch of notes and chords. When I here PSG'S on the radio I WONDER HOW EN THE HECK DO THEY MAKE SOUND THE WAY THEY DO? If I could get that country sound well I could expand from there . I play the guitar rhythm lead and like to fill in when someone sings. AHHH HELP
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If I couldn't play music I would go nut's.How do people go thru life and not have a hobby? life would be boring. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2018 4:47 pm
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The learning curve is pretty steep. I've played several years and basically feel the same way. Sometimes I feel like I make music, but mostly I worry whether I am playing in tune. It's hard!
Have you ever recorded your playing to listen back?
Do you use any method, like the one above, or Jeff Newman's stuff? If not, you really should.
There are several players near you...I guarantee one or more would help you.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
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Posted 13 Aug 2018 5:46 pm time
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The kindest thing another steel guitar player has said to me is that it takes 10 years to not suck.
I've only been playing 8 so I don't feel so bad. 
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
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David Weisenthal
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2018 6:21 pm
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Jerry, I've been at E9 for 3 years and sometimes I absolutely can't play and other days I'm decent for a passage or two. There's no telling. Just getting around to play the 1 4 5 chords at the right time is still the sticking point for me.... even though I "know" the chords and basic positions...it's just the timing. All of the greats played 4-8 hours a day from an early age, and had tons of natural aptitude. Its gonna take a few more years for sure. Its still fun though.
_________________
Derby SD10, Peavey Session 400 |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2018 7:59 pm
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| Jeff Rady gave me some advice recently and I’m about to dive into it. He told me to create on the pedal steel you need to be able to have a good understanding of music theory. I got Mark Van Allen’s course this weekend and I plan on getting Mike Perlowin’s music theory book as well. I saw in snother thread he will send you a pdf on pedal steel that is a supplement to his book. The idea is to be able to start thinking independently on the steel. |
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Don R Brown
From:
Rochester, New York, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 7:12 am
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| Mark Hershey wrote: |
| He told me to create on the pedal steel you need to be able to have a good understanding of music theory. |
I have heard that said before, someone once told me it is impossible (exact word that was used) to learn to play pedal steel without a strong knowledge of theory. I mentioned that to one of my PSG teachers, you'd recognize his name, has been playing probably 40+ years etc. He put on a sad face and said "Gee, all these years I thought I was a steel player, but I guess I was wrong".
While theory is a good thing to know, we are all different and we learn and apply our knowledge in different ways. I'm not belittling theory, what I am saying is don't think you can't make progress unless you have theory. Theory is ONE of the tools which help you, but IMHO it's not something you must have before you start.
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Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 7:31 am
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I agree, Don. There are great players out there who could not explain the theoretical concepts behind their brilliance if their lives depended on it.
If you are struggling, some study of music theory certainly can’t hurt. Understanding the layout of the neck and knowing where to find the notes and chords is essential too, as is playing in accurate rhythm, etc... But the main thing is to make sure the foundation of your technique is solid. A teacher can definitely help with that.
There’s no need to reinvent the wheel. There is a lessons section here on the Forum you should look into: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewforum.php?f=18
As well as a beginner’s page:
https://dhdube.wixsite.com/psgbeginner
If you’re having that much trouble, a review of how to get started again may be in order. |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 8:19 am
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| Don R Brown wrote: |
| Mark Hershey wrote: |
| He told me to create on the pedal steel you need to be able to have a good understanding of music theory. |
I have heard that said before, someone once told me it is impossible (exact word that was used) to learn to play pedal steel without a strong knowledge of theory. I mentioned that to one of my PSG teachers, you'd recognize his name, has been playing probably 40+ years etc. He put on a sad face and said "Gee, all these years I thought I was a steel player, but I guess I was wrong".
While theory is a good thing to know, we are all different and we learn and apply our knowledge in different ways. I'm not belittling theory, what I am saying is don't think you can't make progress unless you have theory. Theory is ONE of the tools which help you, but IMHO it's not something you must have before you start. |
I agree with you and if someone can make it far on the PSG without theory more power to them.
My .02 if you are stuck or frustrated with where you are at on the instrument figure what is lacking in your playing and set a goal. Mine is to be able to create on the steel and to back up another musician. I think understanding harmonized scales, and understanding the 7ths, 9ths, augmented, diminished chords and so one will do me some good.
Another thing that has been helpful to me is to meticulously break down a song. Find an example of some steel playing that inspires you or what you aspire to be able to do. I've been going through She Thinks I still Care out of the Winnie Winston Book. I'm going through some of the licks and instead of making sure I just execute them right and sound like the record I'm going further and understanding how they relate to the chord progression. Some of the licks compliment the chord, some of them highlight the next chord coming. I'm trying to understand how and why these moments work. I'm happy with the progress I made and am close to getting out there to gig. I am open to any other insight others have. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 8:44 am
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| Jerry Recktenwald wrote: |
| I have owned a PSG for a year and one half my playing stinks! It sounds like just a bunch of notes and chords. When I here PSG'S on the radio I WONDER HOW EN THE HECK DO THEY MAKE SOUND THE WAY THEY DO? If I could get that country sound well I could expand from there . |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| That’s all it is for anyone - just a bunch of notes and chords. The good players just know how to play them and when. |
To state what Fred said differently, I would say that it's not simply a bunch of notes and chords. To get "that country sound", at least, the critical part is phrasing and articulation. The country players live in the capability, unique to pedal steel, to constantly slide and bend individual notes in ever-varying combinations. The musical thinking involved in doing this is special to pedal steel, because other instruments can't do this. (Really skilled guitarists can do a little, but nothing like the consistent application of these techniques on steel.) To me, this is the most challenging aspect of playing "country" pedal steel, not learning where the notes and chords are on the neck but developing the mindset to constantly gliss between them.
Paul Franklin takes what I'm talking about to the furthest extreme in his playing on Together Again, with Vince Gill. (solo at 2:10):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fScolqR-_Y |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 8:55 am
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| Mark Hershey wrote: |
| ....Winnie Book... I'm going through some of the licks and instead of making sure I just execute them right and sound like the record I'm going further and understanding how they relate to the chord progression. Some of the licks compliment the chord, some of them highlight the next chord coming. I'm trying to understand how and why these moments work. |
This is how my brain works too. I was never able to play anything interesting “instinctively†or “intuitivelyâ€. I have a good ear but I still wanted to understand. Learning the science has been and continues to be a big help, especially for creating and not just copying. |
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Stephen Pride
From:
Berkeley, CA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 9:23 am Re: time
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| Eric Dahlhoff wrote: |
The kindest thing another steel guitar player has said to me is that it takes 10 years to not suck.
I've only been playing 8 so I don't feel so bad. |
This makes me feel a little better. I've been struggling with PSG on and off for about six years now, and I still feel like I don't sound like a real PSG player.
I've been working with the Jeffran Up From the Top videos, and I get a lot out of them, but it's funny. Mr. Newman will explain a lick, and I'll work it out until I can execute it, and then I'll play it along with him. I've gotten to where I can sound decently in tune if I'm really concentrating, and I can play the licks in time -- but I still hear a profound difference in how it sounds when he plays it vs. when I play it. It feels like there are a million subtleties that are eluding me, and those subtleties are the difference between sounding like a real PSG player vs. sounding like me. |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 10:03 am
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| And it's those subtleties that can only come with time. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 10:29 am
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Touch and control is difficult to achieve on any instrument but one's inadequacies will reveal themselves even more markedly on pedal steel. Remember, too, that a lot of what you're hearing from the pros is excellent volume-pedal control, an area that's often neglected by beginners.
I've always been a staunch advocate for a grasp of theory - I ignored this for too long when I first picked up a six-string in 1957 and there hasn't been a time since then when I haven't regretted that mistake. Within a few years I acquainted myself with a working knowledge of the 'rules' and it accelerated my learning-curve.
Having said that, I was dismayed watching a demo-video by Scotty Anderson. (If you don't know his work, take the time to check him out!) There's a player who is all instinct with zero knowledge so it can be done. He's a prodigy, though, so most of us need to find another way.
There's a point in the video where he plays his incredible double-stopped arpeggios seamlessly across an Fmaj7 chord. Then he says:'I don't know what this is - some sort of F chord, I guess....' 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Stephen Pride
From:
Berkeley, CA
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 11:18 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
Touch and control is difficult to achieve on any instrument but one's inadequacies will reveal themselves even more markedly on pedal steel. Remember, too, that a lot of what you're hearing from the pros is excellent volume-pedal control, an area that's often neglected by beginners.
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Indeed, I do recognize that the volume pedal is a big part of it. It's frustrating. I think part of the reason it's neglected by beginners is because advice is often given to ignore the volume pedal at first. Sometimes people even say "It's not really that important, I could do without it." But it seems to me like you can't achieve the sounds on your favorite records, the sounds that make you like the instrument in the first place, without skillful use of the volume pedal.
I've seen a youtube snippet of Paul Franklin talking about the volume pedal in his course. Is there anything else out there to help with it? |
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John Spaulding
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Bob Bestor
From:
Ashland, OR
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 6:42 pm
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Brothers I feel your pain. I am coming up on the 2nd anniversary of the arrival of my Mullen Discovery and, despite hundreds of hours of diligent practice, much of the time I feel like I can hardly play a lick. I can find major, minor and dominant 7th chords all over the neck. I know several harmonized and single note scale patterns. I've got some intros and some licks too. But damned if I ever sound like a real pedal steel guitarist. Well....maybe once in a while. But not often enough.
_________________
Keep on truckin' |
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Bob Bestor
From:
Ashland, OR
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Posted 14 Aug 2018 6:57 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| For the first 5 years, no one wanted to hear me. My first wife left me. Just listening to me tune up drove her away. |
My wife and I call the headphones that I use "The Marriage Savers".
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Keep on truckin' |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 15 Aug 2018 6:54 am
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1. Volume pedal, I tell new players to not use it, they want to back out every time they think they are going to make a mistake, sounds like a wah wah pedal.
After you get more confident in your execution introduce it into your playing, set it so that it does not turn off completely, you can thank me later.
2. For those playing in Calif, you have many great players all over the state that will help you, call them.
3. Playing should never be about hot licks and how many you can jam into a song. Find the scale, find the melody, marry the two, less is more.
4. Having said #3 above, move your bar and rock your pedals moving through the chords (major, minor, 7ths, etc)
5. SLOW DOWN, plant your butt on your steel seat, turn on your amp, place your hands on the steel and listen to Buddy Emmons play all day, try to capture the emotion he plays with every note, not the licks. You can again thank me later.
6. Call someone, anyone, they all have some helpfull tidbits of info that will flatten your learning curve.
(Me 971-219-8533)
7. Youtube is full of great info by many players, do not discount this great resource.
8. Tablature has a place in the learning curve, but it should be used to discover positions and pedal combinations etc, I would like to hear you being you not you being someone else, we already have them.
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Franklin
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Posted 15 Aug 2018 9:08 am
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Students know when they are basically meandering because at the end of the day, they sound no better, no more in tune, and sadly no closer to their personal goals. They are at wits end and don't know what to do and therefor are grasping at straws. Who do they listen to? Buddy told me as a kid, "I was going to need a bigger rake" Best advice ever!
To play a steel guitar emotionally requires coordination between the volume pedal foot, the pedals, the pick attack, and the bars movement and vibrato shape...
There is an acquired rhythm between all four limbs that has to be memorized in sync. Why? Because we want our memory to store everything played as one fluid move. Its like walking...It is very hard to learn without bending the ankles, pressing off the toes, arching from the heel to toe, bending the knees, etc....Remember muscle memory controls what we do on the fly and its accomplished without any "in the moment" thought process.
So coordinated skill sets need a simultaneous practice ritual when we are in the learning phase... That type of focus is required towards mastery...Just look around at what we are taught, and what skills we know, now remember how they were taught in the most efficient manner...This concept for mastering a skill is true whether its learning to walk, driving a car, playing sports, flying a helicopter, or playing emotional steel guitar. Correct practice habits for the task at hand with an eventual goal(s) in mind pays off every time....Balancing issues that function in a coordinate manner to benefit from their usage is the simplest path towards mastery.
Paul |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2018 9:57 am
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As always, wonderful advice from Paul. My students know me as a champion of theory, not as “the pathâ€, but as one of the cornerstones of a knowledgeable approach to why and how we do things musically. Because of the mechanical aspects of PS, we can think of basics in ways like “this pedal gives me a 6 minorâ€, “this is one way to make a 7th to connect 1 to 4, 2 to 5, or 5 to 1 chords†and so on. I am of the firm belief that accomplished players are USING theory even when they don’t recognize it themselves. Indeed Scotty Anderson is a wonder for how he plays while not being able to explain it externally. I asked him once about a diminished pattern he was ripping on, and he said “Aw, that’s just a ladder lick going from here to here.†No one can listen to him and deny he has a startling grip on music theory- organized his own way.
Even more important to the student than mental organization of musical concepts is simply playing in context. Without knowing each person’s situation, please find people to play with, in as many styles and genres as possible. Push yourself to embrace new music, in rehearsal and performance, and always strive to play with more advanced musicians.
When I started in the late 70’s, I joined a band the same day I got my first steel. All I had was the Winston book, later a few Newman song courses... I took some of the basic licks and shoehorned them into every song we played, and got the band to learn Newman’s version of “ Redskin Rag†and some of the Winston instrumentals so I had stuff to practice. The key for me was playing this stuff in rehearsal and on stage over and over and over. It sinks in in a completely different way from just sitting in the woodshed.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Len Ryder
From:
Penticton B.C.
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Posted 15 Aug 2018 10:39 am
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| Donny Hinson hit the nail on the head. BASICS !!! I've always told new players "learn to walk before trying to run". Forget trying to get those the fast licks etc. till you've got the basics down to where you're comfortable. |
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Don R Brown
From:
Rochester, New York, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2018 1:35 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| For the first 5 years, no one wanted to hear me. My first wife left me. Just listening to me tune up drove her away. |
My current wife is a keeper, has put up with me almost 37 years. But b0b, I sure wish I had known how easy it would have been to get rid of the first one!
As for Paul's post, I intend to print those words of wisdom out and re-read them from time to time. That makes perfect sense and I need to spend some time thinking how to apply those concepts to my practice routine. Thank you, Mr. Franklin! 
_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Aug 2018 5:12 pm
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| Len Ryder wrote: |
| Donny Hinson hit the nail on the head. BASICS !!! I've always told new players "learn to walk before trying to run". Forget trying to get those the fast licks etc. till you've got the basics down to where you're comfortable. |
Thanks, Len. Pedal steel is rather unique, but the basics are just like regular guitar. When people want to learn straight guitar, the first thing they're taught is a simple chord progression...G,C,D7 or C,F,G or E,A,B7. And, I feel we should do the same thing on pedal steel. Of course, we don't strum chords like a straight guitar, we (usually) play triads. These basic three-note chords, and the the 1-4-5 patterns formed both with and without using the pedals, are the foundation of the instrument in country music. It's the sound that brought most all of us into playing pedal steel. The problem is that although these simple licks were once a staple, they aren't used today nearly as much. Therefore, players nowadays who are just beginning on the instrument have to hunt for the simple stuff because most of the stuff found on today's popular radio recordings is more advanced, and takes a modicum of skills, skills that newbies often don't have.
Start simple.
Artists who paint or draw mostly all started out in childhood with stick figures and lollipop trees. In a similar fashion, pedal steel players traditionally started with simple A&B pedal mashing. There are a million songs you can play just using these two pedals. Bunches of scales, and all those intricate, bending, pedal transitions, are beautiful and attention-getting. But they aren't really required to do a simple intro or turn-around in a three-chord song.
Start with playing very simple songs, and worry about sounding like Buddy or Paul later. 
Last edited by Donny Hinson on 16 Aug 2018 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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