Distortion when recording pedal steel

Lucky Oceans · From: Fremantle, W Australia, Australia

Hello! I am recording my pedal steel and am getting distortion from the amp and from the desk whether the pre amp is set to low or high impedance. The distortion happens especially when I attack hard and when I play strummed chords of 6 strings or more. Not a warm sound - more of a harsh, clipping sound.

Using Bill Lawrence 705s in a Williams with a stereo output.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

What happens when you plug a 6-string guitar into that same signal-chain and strum hard?

Lucky Oceans · From: Fremantle, W Australia, Australia

The guitar doesn't distort.

Eric Dahlhoff · From: Point Arena, California

What kind of vol pedal are you using?
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"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan)

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Sounds like you are over driving the input stage. Try plugging into the other input of the amp if there is one. You need to buffer the signal coming from the steel somehow. Maybe try lowering the pickup.

Or try another amp.

Record direct and reamp later ?
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Bob

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Slim Heilpern · From: Aptos California, USA

Hi Lucky!

I would first see if you can reproduce the distortion with the volume pedal at 1/3 of full volume or so. If that removes the distortion, and if it's an active pedal, you might want to switch to a passive one and see if that does the trick (or find some other way to buffer the output).

Hope this helps...

- Slim.
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Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Lots of good suggestions here, but we really need to know your entire signal chain.

Guitar/pickup? Williams with BL 705.

Any pedals from guitar to volume pedal?
Any effects from volume pedal to amp?
Amp used? Input Hi or Low?
Any effects in the loop?

Also, is this a new problem?
Are you using a new piece of gear in the chain?

Etc etc etc.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

I had to lower my pick up for the same reason and that worked out for what i was doing.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Benjamin Franz · From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

I had the same thing happen with the BL705 on my emmons, Lucky, and solved it by lowering the pick up. It seemed the signal was overloading the circuitry in the volume pedal. The other solution I found was to simply use a passive volume pedal.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

All good suggestions.

If the 6-string does not distort but pedal steel does it's an issue of excessive signal at the amp input.

This could come from the guitar itself - i.e. the pickup being too close to the strings or an onboard preamp output, if any - or be cumulative from every single item in the signal chain added together.

As previously mentioned suggestions will be nothing but guesswork until your entire signal chain from distance between pickup and strings to effects to volume pedal, preamp(s) etc is known.

Unless you have experience as a guitar tech it may be a good idea to find a competent tech locally. Doesn't have to be a pedal steel tech as it's not a pedal steel issue - it's one of the issues common to all electric string instruments : pickup/string spacing and/or output of onboard active electronics; and/or the accumulated output level of ALL the items in your signal chain.

*something*...or more than one thing...is pushing too much signal to the amp. Identifying the culprit sounds simple, but it's often not that easy. It usually takes at least two people - one to play and both to listen, with the non-player making adjustments - to ID the issue(s).

Good luck!
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Lucky, you are not alone. Recording Steel with a volume pedal is indeed a difficult task without "seat time".

Typically, engineers will set the preamp input level at the point where the the MAXIMUM amount of full pedal volume from the Steel occurs. The amount of volume from the Steel cannot exceed where the preamp "clean level "is set or saturation (distortion) will occur. What you are experiencing is over-driving the preamp front end , and indeed it sounds NASTY.

Its very common.

A couple of ways around it, play with the preamp input settings, you should be able to SEE the preamp meter break out of the CLEAN zone and go into the BAD zone if you are sending too much audio signal to the preamp input. Either reduce the gain level on the preamp or FIND the volume pedal settings that don't overdrive the preamp input. Of course this is easier said than done.

Another method, experienced engineers may place a quality compressor between the Steel V pedal and the Preamp input. Not for tonal effect but rather to TAME the peaks. Many will argue that this is a bad choice. It's not, a quality compressor with a skilled engineer can and will do this without it effecting the sound of the audio signal. But this also requires seat time and understanding the use of a free standing compressor. The point is to SEE the compressor working (meters) but not hear it where it effects the audio envelope.

It's a balance of process.

I don't do many sessions but the ones I do, mostly demo and a few retail, the engineers all had me going thru a stand-alone compressor ,( not a cheap one) and they wanted me to set my MAX volume level. So it was on ME to no exceed what I told them was my MAX volume to the Compressor. Typically I am a 50 % to maybe 75 % V pedal person anyway so it wasn't all that difficult for me. Others may be totally different but the process is the same. Equate this to a singer who backs off the mic slightly when they are singing LOUD passages. They are "self" controlling the audio signal to the preamp. they know. they are experienced.

When we track at home, ( Pro Tools home studio) everything goes thru a channel strip (preamp) with some MILD compression up front, ahead of the DAW (or recorder) . I record and produce maybe 4 or 5 DEMO CD's each year at our small Home Studio.The channel strip with the compressor has turned out to be my best friend. But it took much trial and error to learn the nuances. Too much compression , you can hear it, too little and it's not functional.

Point of rference:

Many will say that years back they didn't use compressors, which is true. The recording process was Analog, not Digital. With Analog recording we used ZERO DB as our peak reference, you could exceed that point and it would be gradual transition maybe even with NO distortion. With Digital recording, the point of ref is - 6 DB , not 0 db. Once you peak near 0 Db thats when the trouble begins. Saturation or distortion. If you exceed that point, the track is done for and can't be repaired, unlike Analog where it is a smooth transition above 0 DB. This is why by todays standards, compressors have become a TOOL for digital recording. Used properly it can be a SESSION saver.

Wishing you the best

Tony in Charlotte NC
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

This seems a little weird, giving all this advice and recording 101 information to a guy who probably has more studio â€œseat timeâ€ than 20 of the rest of us combined. Nonetheless, he did ask and I hope we helped. I would sure like to know what the problem was and how it was solved.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Fred, studio seat time is not the same as engineering time. When any of us sit in session, we are playing an instrument. I know and work with many players who are pretty good musicians, many of which play on demo sessions regularly, but know nothing about engineering. Two different worlds. Lucky obviously has been performing and recording for decades, but it's possible that when recording he was on the other side of the glass . Not uncommon for session players.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

Lucky does your Williams distort plugged into a regular amp? It could be a grounding issue possibly the output jack on the guitar. I had that happen once in that somehow the jack wasn't making decent contact. I loosened it a bit and tightened it back up. Bingo it worked. Hope you are loving your Williams. It is the serial number before mine.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Very true, Tony. I am a basket case on both sides of the glass Cool

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

My favorite answer is to drop the pickup adjustment.
Most people run their pickups about 3.5 mm from the strings. I find this causes a lot of amps to exhibit front end saturation, so I drop it to 5mm.
This not only makes the output drop to more tolerable levels, but the tone gets sweeter.
BTW, I still love the pedal steel on the Comin' At Ya record.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lucky Oceans · From: Fremantle, W Australia, Australia

Hey All,

Thanks for your suggestions. Indeed, the pickups were too high - as simple as that!

Thank you thank you.

lucky

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

I find that some compressors are prone to distortion with steel, because of the volume swells. Like Tony says, engineers tend to set them with very little margin for dynamics. But even if you get them to give you a little more headroom, I think sometimes the devices themselves tend to "grab" the initial signal level, and then as it grows (or doesn't diminish, although they are expecting it to) they create some distortion from their makeup gain. . . not really sure, but there have been some situations where that was the only explanation we could come up with. One studio in particular this happens virtually every time I work there - I think it comes down to their outboard gear.

Another culprit (I recently caught this happening) can be those line-driver boxes for extending your signal over an XLR cable to an amp in another room. The engineer refused to believe it could be the cause, but when we switched to a passive 1/4-inch extension, the problem was solved. . .

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