String breakage on a Fender 400

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I know this topic has been covered quite a bit but is there anything I can do to reduce the frequency of the high G# breaking, without having to tune down to D? I have the stationary bridge. Would a heavier gauge string help? Is there a string manufacturer that makes a special .011 string out of high tension steel?

I'm thinking of trying the Ralph Mooney tuning which actually has the G#s on seperate pedals. That alone may help reduce string breakage. Also, I have the little hooks shaped like a "C" which reduces the angle of the string over the bridge.

What a great sounding guitar!

Thanks, Dave Z

Jerry Hendrix · From: Manistee, Michigan, USA * R.I.P.

Well Dave,I tried to take the roller nut
from one 400 & mount it on an older 400
but it just had to be done years ago at
the factory, I knoe "Fuzzy" Owens had his
re-done once, Bakersfield 1959, but I don`t
know of any one who would take-on such a
repair job. Try a little 3in 1 oil on the
nut & use Jagwire strings,.011 or.012 call
Danny at 989-539-7808. I buried my 400.

Russ Tkac · Posted 28 Sep 2005 4:43 pm

Hi Dave,

I have the roller nut and cam bridge and have not had a problem with the G#. I'm not sure what you can do but I agree that they sound great. I hope that you get a good solution.

Russ

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Regrettably, I don't think you'll find any string that will hold up very long on these guitars when tuned to the G#. The combinatin of the long string length (24 1/2") and the solid-rod bridge is just more than any string will stand. I even tried to use .010" strings on mine, and they'd only last a few songs...even with the oiling. I'd pop .011's just getting them up to pitch!

The "D9th" tuning is the only alternative, and really not so bad, once you get used to the position changes.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Thanks guys. I realize there is no real solution but maybe a way to reduce the breakage. I think of something.

Dave Z

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Should I change the gauges for the D9 tuning?

DZ

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Why notttry the original Fender A6 tuning? Then the high string is an E, which should hold up better. It's a great tuning for all sorts of stuff, and the 400 really wasn't designed...and isn't mechanized for the style of...E9 tuning IMO.

I might tune one that way for fun, but if I was serious about an E9 tuning, I'd get a modern steel - I'm on brain fade tonight, but someone ( forgive me, sheesh, it's another member of the "400 club"...) Had a Carter pup rewound to Fender specs and pretty well nailed the tone. Best of both worlds if you want to do E9.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 30 September 2005 at 01:48 PM.]

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

In a word, no, but it won't take you long to get used to D9. I use stock E9th strings on my Fender 1000, but I do replace the F# (G# in E9) string with a .012. I have the two chromatic strings on the top two strings. This puts my F# on the 3rd string which helps prevent string breakage, as the angle of the string from the nut to the tuner is not so severe.

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

When I played a 400, I used a 10 ga string and still broke some strings. Ralph Mooney used a "banjo A" string on his 1000 when he could find them. I don't know if they are any better, though.
We both tuned to E9.
You can hear what my Fender 400 sounded like by going to my website. Select "sound clips", "John Daugherty", "Lately" which is a vocal by Norm Owens(1961) which I played steel on, using a fender 400.

------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar

[This message was edited by John Daugherty on 29 September 2005 at 07:27 AM.]

Gary Spaeth · From: Wisconsin, USA

would this work? take a piece of a broken measuring tape about 3/8" wide and slip it under the string at the bridge with the curve of the tape parallel to the strings. curve side down of course. it might act as a rocker when the string moves. i never tried it but it won't cost much if it fails. you'd have to cut the tape with a dremel cutting wheel cause it's brittle. send me an email with your address and i'll send you a hunk. i've got a couple miles of the stuff.

[This message was edited by Gary Spaeth on 29 September 2005 at 01:36 PM.]

John Bresler R.I.P. · From: Thornton, Colorado

Ernie Ball put out a course in the early 60's that featured A6th but he also had tips for Fender players throughout the book. I remember one tip was to swap string 1 & 2 at the tuning keys so that the first string didn't bend so sharply downward.

I don't have a 400 keyhead to look at, but hopefully this makes sense. Maybe the Fender tuning keys had longer shafts???

Frenchy's music has a .011pg string that is manufactured by SIT and is advertised to be made with extra strength for Pedal steel guitar. I use them and just don't break strings anymore. Don't know how they would work with a fixed bridge but it might be worth a try.

[This message was edited by John Bresler on 29 September 2005 at 08:12 AM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

One reason strings break when dragged back and forth across the bridge bar is the roughness and grooves that develop.If the bridge bar were to be replaced which a much harder and highly polished piece of steel,it might make a difference. Befriend a machinist.... -MJ-

Gerry Hogan · From: Burghclere, Hampshire, England

Dave, my first steel was a well-used Fender 400, which I had back between 1966 and 1970. It was the same fixed-bridge model as yours. I found by tuning all the strings down one half-tone, not only did I not break so many strings, but I could learn Tom Brumley's and Don Rich's licks easier, because I was in tune with them on the vinyl albums I had! The whole band I was playing with in those days tuned down one half-tone, to be in tune with me, so open strings could "ching" out on the flat-top, too (it would never work, playing "Love's Gonna Live Here" in A flat! Can you imagine it?!). Much later, Tom told me that he used to tune down one half-tone on his Fender 1000, and Don, Buck and Doyle did the same!

Incidentally, I found it a lot easier to sing Don's harmony vocals when the key was dropped one half-tone! (It was still not easy, but it was easier!).

A couple more things: George L's make a .0115-gauge string, which would certainly work if you tuned one half-tone down as well; and I agree with Michael that grooves in the bridge won't help the situation. I recall that my bridge was chromed (is yours?), which made it worse, because that soon gave way.

Gerry

Don Blood · From: Illinois, USA

Dave,
I had a similar problem a couple years back. What I did worked pretty well. I took a piece of wire, such as a heavy coat hangar, and made an extension for the hog ring that the strings connect to. I twisted the hog ring extension 90 degrees so that where the string conected was at the same angle as the original. Now, the length of this has to be just right so that the twisted part of the string rides on the top of the roller, and when you raise the string the twisted part is still on the roller. If it is too long, and too much of the twisted part hangs over the roller, it will cause the sound of that string to be muddy. If that roller was bigger and the string wasn't being bent at such an angle, they wouldn't break as much. But, I tried everything, and this actually works. If you need a drawing of what mine looked like I will draw you one and email it to you. I no longer have that steel or I would send a pic.
Good luck!

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I would like to see a drawing of that Don. Thanks.

And thanks to everyone for their input. I think I'll experiment with different tunings and tuning down a step. I don't really want to replace the fixed bridge with rollers because I'm afraid the tone would change too much.

Dave Z

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 29 September 2005 at 11:09 PM.]

Patrick Ickes · From: Upper Lake, CA USA

Hi Dave,
Sorry I got you into this!

I also have to say that, if you clean and polish your bridge, you shouldn't have these string breakage problems. I still have the same G# that I had at the San Jose Jam. Of course, I don't play every day, but come on.... As Michael said,"befriending a machinist" can help. There's a great company in Sacramento that will make the bridges I described to you months ago, but it won't be cheap....relatively.
Maybe I should take orders and chop the price by quantity.
Bottom line is that, these old guitars play and sound great, with one slight mod (top secret), they won't groove and burr.
Pat
PS Are you playing in Lake or Mendocino County any time soon?? Bring up your bridge and I'll do what I can to fix it.

Jon Zimmerman · From: California, USA

Jim Sliff;
I noticed the earlier entry about the Carter w/Fender spec. p/up...that was Bob Carlucci's solution to the 400 string demon..with the added benefit of lighter weight overall, etc.
..mine's faded away like old levi's too, but I remember the similar topics. ~JZ~

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