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Topic: Types of aluminum used for steel guitar parts? |
Dave Stroud
From:
Texas
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 7:48 am |
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Are there various aluminum alloys that different steel builders use? I'm sure different alloys would have different resonance qualities...
I wonder if any builders have tried to "tune" the aluminum necks and endplates with the wood body by shaving off a certain amount of material- and if this would have any effect on the general resonance of a steel.
I'm guessing many builders out there just use plain old 6061 alloy. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 8:02 am
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| On the new Sierras I use 6061 for the undercarriage parts and 7075 for anything to do with string contact: basically everything you see on top of the guitar as well as everything underneath that is part of the changer assembly. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 1:50 pm Re: Types of aluminum used for steel guitar parts?
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| Dave Stroud wrote: |
| Are there various aluminum alloys that different steel builders use? I'm sure different alloys would have different resonance qualities... |
IMHO, they use different alloys, but I doubt that it's for resonance. You see, metals don't have much "ring" once they're fastened flat to a board. You can try this yourself. Hang a metal object (like a horseshoe) from a string or hook, and then hit it...and it will resonate and ring like a bell. Screw it down to a board, where it's not free to vibrate, and it'll go "clunk" when you hit it. Other factors like machinability, cost, and corrosion resistance are also important in design.
| Quote: |
| I wonder if any builders have tried to "tune" the aluminum necks and endplates with the wood body by shaving off a certain amount of material- and if this would have any effect on the general resonance of a steel. |
Perhaps, a very small amount. I rather think that they shave off unneeded material to cut down on size and weight. I once got into a fierce argument with Bobbe Seymour about this, as he said (some) builders used castings rather than machinings because they "rang like a bell". I had to prove to him that bells were cast because that was just the cheapest and easiest way to make bells. The idea that cast endplates and tuning heads have more resonance is a myth. |
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Dave Stroud
From:
Texas
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 2:26 pm
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If there is any discernable difference in tone between aluminum 6061 and 7075, it would probably come from the differing amounts of zinc. 6061 is ~.25% Zinc, while 7075 is ~5-6% Zinc.
I've found discussions among guitar players about the difference between zinc and aluminum tailpieces. Which one sounds better depends on the guitar and which ever one will balance it out better. I'm not sure whether those discussions can be considered with a steel guitar neck though, since the strings don't come in direct contact with the neck. I could see some benefit in balancing out 6061 and 6075 between the rollers and the changer fingers though. That might make a difference... Or balancing that out with a zinc alloy somewhere could be cool too. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 3:38 pm
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I don't know, Dave. You'd have to do some very precise studies to determine if the (or any?) difference between 6061 and 7075 was due to the presence of zinc, or the fact that 7075 is both denser and harder.
As an example, some guitars use brass nut rollers, and some use stainless steel. My ears can't tell much difference. Also, some use narrow rollers, and some use wide ones. And again, I can't really hear a significant difference. What these types of questions boil down to, I think, is how much time and money you want to spend doing the studies and experiments when they may yield no substantial improvement. (After all, builders already sell every guitar they can make.) Another way to put it would be..."How much extra would a player be willing to spend on a guitar when only one out of ten people, or one out of one hundred people, might hear the difference?"
Many players are looking for more out of the guitar when that's not where the biggest deficiency really is. |
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Todd Clinesmith
From:
Lone Rock Free State Oregon
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 5:37 pm Re: Types of aluminum used for steel guitar parts?
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Dave Stroud wrote: |
| Are there various aluminum alloys that different steel builders use? I'm sure different alloys would have different resonance qualities... |
I had to prove to him that bells were cast because that was just the cheapest and easiest way to make bells. The idea that cast endplates and tuning heads have more resonance is a myth. |
With out a doubt that is the most economical way to make a bell. That still does not prove that extruded brass rings the same resonance as cast, or as well.
I have used different cast aluminum alloys and achieved different results as far as mids,bass and treble are concerned.
Cast aluminum necks have a richer tone than extruded aluminum.
Think of all the "holy grail tone" steels out there. Bigsby, Sho Bud, Emmons,ZB. I think Zum Steels were cast as well.
For every action there is a re-action, and it applies to steel guitar materials and construction the whole way through. Can I tell the difference between a cast head or a cast endplate? Not sure about the head, but the endplate I believe so. When you start adding all of the parts on a steel, this is the inherent of the guitar.
I see similar arguments on the non pedal page that the pickups give the tone, and you can basically use a 2 X 4 for wood. The acoustic tone ( unplugged) is what the player and the pickups are feeling / hearing. Of course the pickup has a lot to do with the tone achieved, but the natural acoustic sound of a steel guitar is what makes the holy grail instruments.
I used to see the same argument during the boom of the modern resonator guitar. That solid vs ply wood achieved the same results, and solid wood was just for show. All of the tone was in the type of cone used.
_________________
face book page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Clinesmith-Instruments/1457245817911268?ref=bookmarks |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 6:07 pm
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| I think the thickness of the cabinet is one part of the 13 secret’s in a push pull Emmons an all pull Emmons. Bobby Seymour told me there were thirteen secrets that made the Emmons sound so good. Emmons an Franklin cabinet ‘s are thinner than most steels. He once told me that the gfi steel done everything wrong for good sound but Bobby said they sound very good. An I agree with Bobby’s statement. Paul Franklin senior showed me how the legs on a Franklin will vibrate on Paul’s Franklin junior’s steel. Try it on your steel if they don’t find you one that will. Just joking but Paul’s Steel legs viberated very well. Paul senior showed me this year’s ago at a Jeff Newman Jam in White House Tn. I’ve been feeling legs ever sense pedal steel legs that is. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 6:41 pm Re: Types of aluminum used for steel guitar parts?
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| Todd Clinesmith wrote: |
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Dave Stroud wrote: |
| Are there various aluminum alloys that different steel builders use? I'm sure different alloys would have different resonance qualities... |
I had to prove to him that bells were cast because that was just the cheapest and easiest way to make bells. The idea that cast endplates and tuning heads have more resonance is a myth. |
With out a doubt that is the most economical way to make a bell. That still does not prove that extruded brass rings the same resonance as cast, or as well.
I have used different cast aluminum alloys and achieved different results as far as mids,bass and treble are concerned.
Cast aluminum necks have a richer tone than extruded aluminum.
Think of all the "holy grail tone" steels out there. Bigsby, Sho Bud, Emmons,ZB. I think Zum Steels were cast as well.
For every action there is a re-action, and it applies to steel guitar materials and construction the whole way through. Can I tell the difference between a cast head or a cast endplate? Not sure about the head, but the endplate I believe so. When you start adding all of the parts on a steel, this is the inherent of the guitar.
I see similar arguments on the non pedal page that the pickups give the tone, and you can basically use a 2 X 4 for wood. The acoustic tone ( unplugged) is what the player and the pickups are feeling / hearing. Of course the pickup has a lot to do with the tone achieved, but the natural acoustic sound of a steel guitar is what makes the holy grail instruments.
I used to see the same argument during the boom of the modern resonator guitar. That solid vs ply wood achieved the same results, and solid wood was just for show. All of the tone was in the type of cone used. |
Those are all interesting points, Todd! But when you compared the cast parts with machined ones, were there any other differences? Small differences in dimensions, shape, or weight could also be responsible for the sonic differences. To say nothing of the surface tolerances or how they were mounted. (Ron Lashley once said that a single screw in the wrong place could change the sound of a guitar.) Sure, differences in the body material can make a difference in the sound, but one is not necessarily universally "better" than the other. Those judgments are subjective, after all. Many say that the first Emmons guitars sounded best, but exactly what was the cause? Was it the cast parts? The wraparound necks? The old-growth woods? The early changer design? For sure, every part has an effect, but it's really hard to nail down whether it was just one part, or the sum of the parts, or the way they were put together that made the difference. As for the "holy grail" status of certain guitars, I think that's as much due to the age or rarity as to the construction or sound. I can remember when you could not hardly give away a Danelectro guitar, but now they're "special" and being remade. Go figure. Whenever someone raves about old Telecasters, and how magical they sounded, I always bring up Luther Perkins...and they seem to walk away muttering. Whenever someone speaks of how important wood is to the bodies of steel guitars, mentioning the great sound of the Bakelite Rickenbackers sometimes gets a similar response.
I will agree that most everything in the equation makes a difference. Sometimes it's major, and sometimes it's insignificant. But I'm still not always convinced as to "why". Everyone has reasons for their choice of instrument, but looks and emotion can sometimes be as big a factor as performance.
Anyhow, thanks for your response!  |
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Todd Clinesmith
From:
Lone Rock Free State Oregon
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Posted 25 Jun 2018 7:29 pm
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Good points Donny. All of those factors add up, and it is hard to individually pull the good ones. But it is worth trying, and gaining experience form the good ones can only keep making the instruments better.I have spent many hours and lots of money chasing tone down rabbit holes. It was all worth it, though sometimes lost in a rabbit hole I have wondered.
I can say from my experience that extruded aluminum is far different tonally than cast. Especially on lap instruments that are not bolted down. Extruded is way thinner sounding . I am not saying great instruments are not made from it, but different, yes.
I am always amazed how the pioneer builders got it right. Some of it was by knowledge and a lot of it was by chance. Rickenbacker made the cast aluminum guitars and the Bakelite guitars because they were production factories, and that was there medium. Rickenbacker as a company were not really a luthier facility in the beginning, they were a production shop that could take on Paul Barth's, and George Beauchamp's design. As much as I love the bakelite guitars, in my experience they go out of tune to temperature change way more than aluminum or wood.
The early Sho Bud Perms are one of the best sounding guitars I've ever played. I have heard the same about the earliest Emmons.
I have an early Sho Bud here , that if any modern maker could make a guitar sound that good and have the modern mechanics, it would be a winner. The same can be said about Bigbsy's , though I think a modern day player would like that Perm. Sho Bud better in a country setting.
_________________
face book page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Clinesmith-Instruments/1457245817911268?ref=bookmarks |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 26 Jun 2018 2:41 am
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My Franklin has cast end plates, necks, key heads and pedals.
FWIW, cast by the same company that did the aluminum castings for Sho-Bud. |
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