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Topic: requency range of "pick" sound? - TC Electronic HyperGravity |
David Sheads
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2018 8:40 pm |
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I'm playing around with a multi-band compressor (customizable toneprint for the TC Electronic HyperGravity pedal) to attempt to slightly compress the entire frequency range (pre-volume pedal), but compressing the range with pick-noise, especially of the pick-blocking variety, a bit more, with a fast attack and a fairly fast release. early experimentation with the settings suggest that most of the "ugly" pick noise is lying somewhere between 3kHz to 6 kHz.
Recording and electronic engineering friends, and anyone else who wants to chime in: where would you say the "chink" sound is - the sound of laying a metal pick on an un-blocked or still-vibrating string? it definitely seems to move around a bit depending on which string and where the tone bar and pick are on the string.
And a follow-up question if you have a suggestion of the frequency range to focus on: what other qualities of pedal steel would be missing if the attacks in that frequency range were getting slightly compressed? Am I missing thinking about the consequences on some other technique, such as harmonics?
And to those who want to tell me to work on my blocking technique instead of playing around with gadgets: thanks, I'm definitely working on that, too - just interested in seeing whether this works well enough to put it into my signal chain for performances where I'd like to sound better than I actually am (and keep it out for practicing blocking, like, every day for the rest of my life).
Last edited by David Sheads on 16 Jun 2018 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Sheads
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2018 8:56 pm
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I found my RTA frequency analysis app on my old phone and made the most horrendous pick blocking sounds i could muster (side-note: if you've forgotten how to make these sounds and need to hire me to make them for you, i'm available). the app is telling me the sounds are probably around 10k-16k (it doesn't read out higher than that, mostly because it's a phone's microphone).
anyway, i'll keep experimenting tomorrow with better equipment. please let me know what you think! |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 5:48 am
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One little detail: not even a multiband compressor is fast enough to catch a signal above 2-3 KHz in time to suppress the leading edge of the "chink" sound, so once adjusted for an audible effect you'll get a shorter "chink" followed by a short dip. Maybe that is good enough for what you are trying to achieve..?
A "sinusoidal clipper" before any active stages, will catch high frequency peaks alright, but…
1: aren't many such clippers on the market.
2: it will distort – how much depends on how well it is built. The best emulate tube-clipping, while most barely improve over amp-input clipping. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 5:49 am
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Very interesting. I don't remember ever seeing this topic come up on the Forum before.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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David Sheads
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 7:17 am
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Thanks, Georg. That's very helpful advice, and might save me from fruitlessly pursuing this for too long. I'm going to keep working on it and see if the results are to my liking. When I got this compressor, I realized that the worst-case scenario (not being able to hone in on the "chink" sound) would mean I still have a decent, highly-customizable compressor to put in my chain.
One idea I'm having is to focus on getting the threshold for the "pick-noise-band" compressor set right to only start kicking in during those times when I've got the volume pedal more open than usual - these moments are times when I most notice and am bothered by my unrefined technique.
If it's set correctly, it should allow low tones to ring out at a constant volume, while emulating a quick dip on the volume pedal for newly-plucked higher notes. Anyway, that's one goal. |
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David Sheads
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 7:20 am
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| Jim - do you know if there's a way to cross-post on the forum, rather than start another thread in another section? I considered posting in "Recording" (because people who do a lot of pedal steel recording would most likely be familiar with the answer), but it's also about getting the settings adjusted on a piece of electronics, for performance (not recording) purposes... |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 7:35 am
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I think this is the correct section of the forum. The TC Electronic HyperGravity is a stomp box intended for live performance as well as recording.
... And there's no way to keep a topic active in 2 sections.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 8:34 am
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| David Sheads wrote: |
| One idea I'm having is to focus on getting the threshold for the "pick-noise-band" compressor set right to only start kicking in during those times when I've got the volume pedal more open than usual - these moments are times when I most notice and am bothered by my unrefined technique. |
But that will only work with the compressor after the VP, and you originally wanted it before the VP (where it in my opinion will work best for overall compression anyway).
FWIW, I always play through a compressor before the VP, and although it is a cheap and simple one – a BOSS LMB-3 – it does a good job when set for light compression. My goal isn't to dampen the pick-sound although it does that too to a degree. I just like the "automatic" ducking-effect – emulates light blocking when picking up and down the strings, slight sustaining of held notes, and overall evening out of levels for better control of expression via the VP.
A quick/short, clear and precise, acoustically sounding, "pling"-like pick-attack sound is part of what I want to hear when I (or others) play PSG, so I usually adjust my compressor to enhance that sound a little bit.
If/when I'm not happy with the sound the picks make when hitting the strings, I rather work on my technique than apply electronic crutches. Having said that, electronic means are fine when used right – in combination with good playing techniques  |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 8:55 am
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| Let me add that the "pick sound" I hear most often in live situations, is the short "scratch/shreak" of peak-clipping in pre-amp stages. That is one sound I do try to avoid by using electronic means, mainly by providing plenty of headroom in each stage. My compressor as first stage helps immensely. |
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David Sheads
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2018 6:52 pm
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Georg - I actually started looking for a compressor because of reading you recommending the LMB-3 elsewhere in the forum. And it occurred to me just after writing my most recent reply that what I was suggesting would mean putting the compressor after the volume pedal, as you say. Since then, I had a fleeting thought of having a side chain compressor, the threshold trigger before the VP and the actual compression after the VP, and then realized it would mean a terrifically complicated rig, or else playing through a computer DAW rather than a “normal†live rig.
Thanks for the great and thoughtful advice so far. I’ll take some screenshots of the toneprint editor settings and post them here later. I still think there are some very interesting possibilities (outside of pick-noise control, which may be a dead end) for this pedal for the pedal steel world. I’d like to see if I can put together some useful presets as starting points for other players. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 17 Jun 2018 1:18 am
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| David Sheads wrote: |
| […] I had a fleeting thought of having a side chain compressor, the threshold trigger before the VP and the actual compression after the VP, and then realized it would mean a terrifically complicated rig […] |
Right, that would be somewhat complicated with compressors as found on the market. Also not much to gain unless you let the VP position itself control the compressor's parameters – change them gradually to add more compression when VP is more than half-way open for instance. Can be done when one designs a compressor circuit from scratch. The Telonics guys indicate that their VP has that top-compression in some pre-programs, and I have designed/built enough compressors/limiters (mainly for broadcasting and recording) in my time to know how-to make them work that way if I wanted to.
Nearly all advantages of having a compressor in the sound-chain for live PSG playing, are (in my experience) had by having the compressor before the VP. That way the VP as "gain control" and "expression pedal" isn't suppressed, so one can push levels musically "on top of" the compressed levels – an important point in my opinion.
While more professional compressors act (more or less) smoothly, the simple stomp-box type compressors/limiters used most often in live set-ups have "character": each may suit one instrument and one style of playing, and not another combination.
The very pragmatic reasons for not building a tailored compressor for myself, was, and is, that it is so much simpler, and cheaper, to look for one on the market that, more or less by chance, happened to suit me.
I had a deal with a larger music store so I could test pretty much all compressors/limiters/whatnot for instruments on the market for a few weeks each, without it costing me any until I chose one. I chose the LMB-3 because its "overall character" suited me and my playing style, and not because it was "better" than others. How else could I have landed on "a limiter/enhancer for bass guitar", and not even alter its characteristics to fit my PSGs better.
"A Rose by any Other Name …" |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 18 Jun 2018 12:32 am
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I'll second the observation that the worst chink noise resides in the 3k to 6k region. Higher frequencies may be prominent too but usually a guitar or pedal steel amplifier rolls off sharply over 4k so very high frequencies are not likely creating too many problems.
I use a stone pick with electric guitar which confounds the issue. An SPL Transient Designer solves the problem nicely by reducing the initial attack. It is actually quick enough to render an ugly clunk sound into a sweet and robust attack sound that is fit for even the most scrutinized recordings or live situations. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 18 Jun 2018 12:49 am
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| P.S. If you go the compressor/side chain route, you could add between 1 and 4 ms delay to the affected signal to ensure that the compressor has time to act. But again, the transient designer solution may be vastly more effective and does not damage tone or feel in any way. It rather improves it. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Jun 2018 1:28 am
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
| An SPL Transient Designer solves the problem nicely by reducing the initial attack. |
Demos sound convincing  |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 18 Jun 2018 8:12 am
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I will paraphrase a comment made to me by Billy Cooper when I was starting out: "If you spent the time you spend under the steel on top of the steel you would be a better player by now"
_________________
Bob |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 18 Jun 2018 10:34 am
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| I agree with George and sometimes I use multiband compression mixing 16 instruments or more played by midrangey rock musicians with amps wide open where I want to tame the mids and leave the rest alone. By the time you get a slow enough release to catch pick attack you rob it of all Dynamics and makes it lifeless. As for pedal steel recording I started using .013 gauge picks decades ago and learned to play lightly while still employing some Dynamics. All the pick noise went away. Your mileage may very. |
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